I actually don't like spectre ultra late game. Spec hits a huge power spike at radiance obviously, and then another one with a tanky item, either heart or skadi. Spec is one of the best 3 item carries- radiance, manta, heart/skadi, and that's pretty much her peak right around 35 minutes. Beyond that teams can usually outlive her aoe, team fights become more about control and bursting a carry or crucial support down fast and spectre has horrible burst dmg. Plus supports start to get items to deal with her illusions, either more hp, euls, force staff, ghost scepters, so they don't die to her ult. Then carries can finally get silver edge and spec is squishy vs that. Spectre also doesn't do very good tower dmg so even when you wipe a team you don't get 1-2 rax guaranteed like you would on a hero like terror blade, troll or luna.
Spectre becomes so tanky yet deals so little single Target dmg that in the lategame she is ignored, her whole team is killed and they kill her ancient while she sits there slowly rad burning them away.
Am's lategame is not that weak, even in games where am cant go hg he can still lock the enemy in their base, out farm them and choke their farm. Mana burn is a fucking rlly good passive, to say it falls off is ignorant and stupid, to say am becomes useless lategame is also stupid. Lategame isn't his peak but it dont mean he is weak
AM vs SPEC defintely AM wins coz am get slotted early than spec and ruins ur game however if ur team got good heroes to hold game till spec gets slotted there is no chance for AM to defeat late game SPEC in late. by ggod heroes means good high ground defence to avoid supercreeps good anti push and good supports to babysits . late game it doesnt matter am vs spec 1 v 1 haunt can ruin ur team fights and destroy ue initiation in late game total damage in late game spec deals is much higher than AM so gl to go against spec with all ur other heroes destroyed in team fight .
But generally late game doesnt matter if i pick spec aand am is carry its bad news for me coz he doesnt allow me to go late
All the retards saying Spectre doesn't deal damage are just that, Retards.
if u take her tanky talents she deals no dmg
if u take her dps talents she is too squishy
either way its no where near am's dps considering the items he buys and his low BAT and manta illusions always making sure she cant desolate
no one means she wont have the highest hero dmg by simply existing, or that she cant kill supports with her dmg
im talking abt where that dmg is relevant, am doesnt give af abt specs dmg
Sigh, spec deals TONNNSSSS of damage late game the problem is it's spread out, aoe over time, it's not single target burst dmg. And single target burst dmg is what usually wins fights late as your carry goes ham and wipes out a crucial support so it's a 5v4 or you lock down and 2 shot enemy carry. Get it?
Sven is a hero that gets kited to shit and back late game yet still remains highly relevant and dangerous. Why? Because with gods strength and crit he can 2 shot anyone and cleave entire teams.
It's like that, spec has nothing that compares to that dmg wise, pressing ult at ~30 mins makes all the supports die, but at 45 mins they can usually deal with it.
It doesn't mean spectre is bad, by all means still one of the best carries, but I would take others over her six slotted. Of course this is all highly dependent on team makeup. With zeus you have global burst so spec's aoe is fine. Or if you have another pusher or right clicker then who cares. But late I like sven, sniper, medusa, tb, meepo all better than spec.
@DireWolf
It's like that, spec has nothing that compares to that dmg wise, pressing ult at ~30 mins makes all the supports die, but at 45 mins they can usually deal with it => thats why you have over 2k matches and still 3k :s
@Sin What about the AM match up works so well for spec in your eyes? Is it because of the fighting downtime from 15-25mins when am has his bfury and is farming gives you the space to get radi? That's the only thing I can think of.
A bit off topic, but spec isn't a hero I play very often or understand when I should pick her over other carries. In what situations do you pick her?
if u read what i said, i do get she will have the highest hero dmg in the game for a reason
its just that she cant deal all of it to am, what dmg she does deal to him he shrugs off
It must feel great to boast about picking a high winrate hero (traditionally spectre) against a low winrate hero (traditionally AM) and then trying to teach everyone a lesson with your 5.2k ePeen.
BTW your spectre winrate is completely irrelevant, you have 70% winrate against AM, but 55% against sniper.
I am sure I could find a 8k player who played a lot of spectre and had better winrate against sniper than he did against AM, and then I'd say, look this is why you're never gonna be 8k 0.o
Sin's last 4 spec games, did not lead in tower dmg in a single one. Pretty much just confirms what I am saying, spectre is aoe dmg, not good single target/tower dmg.
@Dire Wolf - No one is disputing your point on spec doing aoe damage. The fact that in his last 4 games he didn't lead in tower damage is complete irrelevant to your point of spec doing single target damage. Especially when in two of those games he had a Shadow Fiend and a Shadow Shaman on his team - two heroes who do a lot of tower damage. Ursa does a lot of single target damage, but you won't find him leading in tower damage anytime soon.
I think you're completely wrong about spec not good at single target damage though. With desolate and manta if you find a hero by themselves you destroy that hero. You'll three targets hitting you with 65 pure damage EACH and that's completely ignoring all other stats and damage from the hero and illusions.
1. Spectre kills Am's team first then spectre's team has an advantage in number
2. Spectre's team bully am.
I cant see any other heroes dat can win 1 on 1 against Am. Even spectre. But after killing spec i believe Am would have like 20-30% HP remaining cuz of dispersion and any others shit
@direwolf
"Sin's last 4 spec games, did not lead in tower dmg in a single one" you made me laugh so hard dude
first, as spectre you dont need to lead in tower damage.
second you are stupid to think that spectre is not good at single target maybe you never play him or you are just 2k trash
@FlightOfGrey:
I like to play against AM cause spectre weakness is early game about 15-25 mins, and with am their team only has 4 so i got time to farm my rad around 20 mins mark. Then he's nothing to spectre late game.
Also AM cant fight with team when hes farming but spectre can.
@Polarize
With a 6 slot spectre i never lose to a 6 slot am, AM cant never kill spec solo
As for when to pick spectre though, what are some of the situations where you look at a draft and think this is a perfect spec game. I'm asking as someone who never knows when to pick spectre and as a result never really play her.
Some of the things I can think of is if they have a weak offlane which would allow spec to free farm, as she's a weak laner, and if you need to get onto someone like a sniper or drow. Otherwise I'm lost as when to draft her.
This thread is so retarded. Alright peeps, listen up, here's what REALLY goes down.
The argument that Spectre doesn't deal single-target damage, push towers, or that she decreases in power some time after hitting power spikes is FUCKING BULLSHIT. Spectre is a late-game monster, and if you build the right items (remember AC is now optimal as well on Spectre, and this can synchronize well with abyssal blade +butter too) Spectre can fuck single targets, push heroes, along with doing what she naturally does best - wiping out the entire enemy team after the 40 min mark.
Now, as for the AM vs Spectre matchup - ofc AM wins in a 1v1 matchup. There is no doubt it about it, it's a no-brainer. AM is a melee agility carry with mana burn, spell shield, and most importantly, insane mobility and very good BAT - which means he can blink onto Spec, keep her stunned, burn all her mana, and, if she puts up a good fight after getting out of stun - AM can just blink away. He plays guerrilla warfare - he doesn't need to keep manfighting a Spectre alone. He will bully her, he will be a nuisance, and most important of all, Spectre just can not lock him down.
And this, my fellow retards, is where the secret lies. Lock down. Only lock down can kill an AM. Abyssal blade, while making Spectre a formidable foe in the late game, is just not enough to bring an AM down alone. She needs a team to do that.
Now, as for which is the better carry to have in the late-game - it depends. A Spectre team tends to be more anti-push oriented while AM pushes out all lanes. AM gives you incredible map control while Spectre has the OP ability to jump to any hero on the map at any time. Given the right items, Spectre can be a scary man-fighter, but there are limits to her fighting powers - she can not fight against, for example, a 6-slotted troll warlord or faceless void, or a pl/jugger with silver edge (they will kite her BKB easily), and most probably an AM as well, due to AM's mobility.
So the final answer is - in a 1v1 matchup AM has the upper hand, but because dota is a team game, it really depends.
Also, imo although I'm a big Spectre fan, I would prefer having an AM on my team in the late game because of AM's map control and how slippery he is
Wow all ur manta illusions can desolate?
So what? There r so many times where am can pop manta, ignore desolate, and specs dmg with desolate (single Target) is shit
Spectre can't handle an am knocking on her door at 35 min with 3-4 items
And to say am farming away gives Spectre space doesn't make sense, any am player wud eat specs jungle, create map pressure by ratting and cutting waves, etc.
There isn't a realistic scenario where Spectre can out farm am, so her best bet is just snowballing with kills, but u will find it hard to fight if am rats ur towers, etc.
It depends on other heroes. If you have no good way to deal with AM's ratting, it's pretty much impossible to win. In 5v5 Spectre mostly is stronger, but why would you 5v5 vs Spectre, when you can just rat.
illusions disable desolate, right?
so while punching into each others face am should spam blink to create those uncontrollable illiusions, disabling one of her spells. thats gonna be a problem for her imo.
I actually don't like spectre ultra late game. Spec hits a huge power spike at radiance obviously, and then another one with a tanky item, either heart or skadi. Spec is one of the best 3 item carries- radiance, manta, heart/skadi, and that's pretty much her peak right around 35 minutes. Beyond that teams can usually outlive her aoe, team fights become more about control and bursting a carry or crucial support down fast and spectre has horrible burst dmg. Plus supports start to get items to deal with her illusions, either more hp, euls, force staff, ghost scepters, so they don't die to her ult. Then carries can finally get silver edge and spec is squishy vs that. Spectre also doesn't do very good tower dmg so even when you wipe a team you don't get 1-2 rax guaranteed like you would on a hero like terror blade, troll or luna.
Spectre becomes so tanky yet deals so little single Target dmg that in the lategame she is ignored, her whole team is killed and they kill her ancient while she sits there slowly rad burning them away.
Am's lategame is not that weak, even in games where am cant go hg he can still lock the enemy in their base, out farm them and choke their farm. Mana burn is a fucking rlly good passive, to say it falls off is ignorant and stupid, to say am becomes useless lategame is also stupid. Lategame isn't his peak but it dont mean he is weak
AM vs SPEC defintely AM wins coz am get slotted early than spec and ruins ur game however if ur team got good heroes to hold game till spec gets slotted there is no chance for AM to defeat late game SPEC in late. by ggod heroes means good high ground defence to avoid supercreeps good anti push and good supports to babysits . late game it doesnt matter am vs spec 1 v 1 haunt can ruin ur team fights and destroy ue initiation in late game total damage in late game spec deals is much higher than AM so gl to go against spec with all ur other heroes destroyed in team fight .
But generally late game doesnt matter if i pick spec aand am is carry its bad news for me coz he doesnt allow me to go late
All the retards saying Spectre doesn't deal damage are just that, Retards.
46 winrate screaming all people retards. Really makes you think.
And i think u misunderstand : Spectre does not really deal damage to AM , does not equal with : Spectre does not deal any damage to anyone
Last game as spectre was in 6.86.
understandable
reading comprehension is a valuable skill, someone should go back to school
if u take her tanky talents she deals no dmg
if u take her dps talents she is too squishy
either way its no where near am's dps considering the items he buys and his low BAT and manta illusions always making sure she cant desolate
no one means she wont have the highest hero dmg by simply existing, or that she cant kill supports with her dmg
im talking abt where that dmg is relevant, am doesnt give af abt specs dmg
my spectre has more than 70% winrate against AM is that enough proof?
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/93072071/matches?hero=spectre&opponent_hero=anti-mage&enhance=overview
When i got spectre and have AM on the other team it will be an EZ game for me :)
"if u take her tanky talents she deals no dmg
if u take her dps talents she is too squishy " => thats why you are 2k o_0
Sigh, spec deals TONNNSSSS of damage late game the problem is it's spread out, aoe over time, it's not single target burst dmg. And single target burst dmg is what usually wins fights late as your carry goes ham and wipes out a crucial support so it's a 5v4 or you lock down and 2 shot enemy carry. Get it?
Sven is a hero that gets kited to shit and back late game yet still remains highly relevant and dangerous. Why? Because with gods strength and crit he can 2 shot anyone and cleave entire teams.
It's like that, spec has nothing that compares to that dmg wise, pressing ult at ~30 mins makes all the supports die, but at 45 mins they can usually deal with it.
It doesn't mean spectre is bad, by all means still one of the best carries, but I would take others over her six slotted. Of course this is all highly dependent on team makeup. With zeus you have global burst so spec's aoe is fine. Or if you have another pusher or right clicker then who cares. But late I like sven, sniper, medusa, tb, meepo all better than spec.
@DireWolf
It's like that, spec has nothing that compares to that dmg wise, pressing ult at ~30 mins makes all the supports die, but at 45 mins they can usually deal with it => thats why you have over 2k matches and still 3k :s
@Sin What about the AM match up works so well for spec in your eyes? Is it because of the fighting downtime from 15-25mins when am has his bfury and is farming gives you the space to get radi? That's the only thing I can think of.
A bit off topic, but spec isn't a hero I play very often or understand when I should pick her over other carries. In what situations do you pick her?
if u read what i said, i do get she will have the highest hero dmg in the game for a reason
its just that she cant deal all of it to am, what dmg she does deal to him he shrugs off
It must feel great to boast about picking a high winrate hero (traditionally spectre) against a low winrate hero (traditionally AM) and then trying to teach everyone a lesson with your 5.2k ePeen.
BTW your spectre winrate is completely irrelevant, you have 70% winrate against AM, but 55% against sniper.
I am sure I could find a 8k player who played a lot of spectre and had better winrate against sniper than he did against AM, and then I'd say, look this is why you're never gonna be 8k 0.o
^is it BadMan?
Sin's last 4 spec games, did not lead in tower dmg in a single one. Pretty much just confirms what I am saying, spectre is aoe dmg, not good single target/tower dmg.
@Dire Wolf - No one is disputing your point on spec doing aoe damage. The fact that in his last 4 games he didn't lead in tower damage is complete irrelevant to your point of spec doing single target damage. Especially when in two of those games he had a Shadow Fiend and a Shadow Shaman on his team - two heroes who do a lot of tower damage. Ursa does a lot of single target damage, but you won't find him leading in tower damage anytime soon.
I think you're completely wrong about spec not good at single target damage though. With desolate and manta if you find a hero by themselves you destroy that hero. You'll three targets hitting you with 65 pure damage EACH and that's completely ignoring all other stats and damage from the hero and illusions.
What usually happens is:
1. Spectre kills Am's team first then spectre's team has an advantage in number
2. Spectre's team bully am.
I cant see any other heroes dat can win 1 on 1 against Am. Even spectre. But after killing spec i believe Am would have like 20-30% HP remaining cuz of dispersion and any others shit
@direwolf
"Sin's last 4 spec games, did not lead in tower dmg in a single one" you made me laugh so hard dude
first, as spectre you dont need to lead in tower damage.
second you are stupid to think that spectre is not good at single target maybe you never play him or you are just 2k trash
@FlightOfGrey:
I like to play against AM cause spectre weakness is early game about 15-25 mins, and with am their team only has 4 so i got time to farm my rad around 20 mins mark. Then he's nothing to spectre late game.
Also AM cant fight with team when hes farming but spectre can.
@Polarize
With a 6 slot spectre i never lose to a 6 slot am, AM cant never kill spec solo
@Sin Ah yeah as I suspected, makes sense.
As for when to pick spectre though, what are some of the situations where you look at a draft and think this is a perfect spec game. I'm asking as someone who never knows when to pick spectre and as a result never really play her.
Some of the things I can think of is if they have a weak offlane which would allow spec to free farm, as she's a weak laner, and if you need to get onto someone like a sniper or drow. Otherwise I'm lost as when to draft her.
I have like 45% wr against am tho
This thread is so retarded. Alright peeps, listen up, here's what REALLY goes down.
The argument that Spectre doesn't deal single-target damage, push towers, or that she decreases in power some time after hitting power spikes is FUCKING BULLSHIT. Spectre is a late-game monster, and if you build the right items (remember AC is now optimal as well on Spectre, and this can synchronize well with abyssal blade +butter too) Spectre can fuck single targets, push heroes, along with doing what she naturally does best - wiping out the entire enemy team after the 40 min mark.
Now, as for the AM vs Spectre matchup - ofc AM wins in a 1v1 matchup. There is no doubt it about it, it's a no-brainer. AM is a melee agility carry with mana burn, spell shield, and most importantly, insane mobility and very good BAT - which means he can blink onto Spec, keep her stunned, burn all her mana, and, if she puts up a good fight after getting out of stun - AM can just blink away. He plays guerrilla warfare - he doesn't need to keep manfighting a Spectre alone. He will bully her, he will be a nuisance, and most important of all, Spectre just can not lock him down.
And this, my fellow retards, is where the secret lies. Lock down. Only lock down can kill an AM. Abyssal blade, while making Spectre a formidable foe in the late game, is just not enough to bring an AM down alone. She needs a team to do that.
Now, as for which is the better carry to have in the late-game - it depends. A Spectre team tends to be more anti-push oriented while AM pushes out all lanes. AM gives you incredible map control while Spectre has the OP ability to jump to any hero on the map at any time. Given the right items, Spectre can be a scary man-fighter, but there are limits to her fighting powers - she can not fight against, for example, a 6-slotted troll warlord or faceless void, or a pl/jugger with silver edge (they will kite her BKB easily), and most probably an AM as well, due to AM's mobility.
So the final answer is - in a 1v1 matchup AM has the upper hand, but because dota is a team game, it really depends.
Also, imo although I'm a big Spectre fan, I would prefer having an AM on my team in the late game because of AM's map control and how slippery he is
What i learnt from this thread is that name calling and personal attacks obviously add credibility to one's opinion.
Wow all ur manta illusions can desolate?
So what? There r so many times where am can pop manta, ignore desolate, and specs dmg with desolate (single Target) is shit
Spectre can't handle an am knocking on her door at 35 min with 3-4 items
And to say am farming away gives Spectre space doesn't make sense, any am player wud eat specs jungle, create map pressure by ratting and cutting waves, etc.
There isn't a realistic scenario where Spectre can out farm am, so her best bet is just snowballing with kills, but u will find it hard to fight if am rats ur towers, etc.
@stentorian
haHAA 2k trash thats my argument xD haHAA
It depends on other heroes. If you have no good way to deal with AM's ratting, it's pretty much impossible to win. In 5v5 Spectre mostly is stronger, but why would you 5v5 vs Spectre, when you can just rat.
I believe in a 1v1 spectre wins.
^it depends on itemization.
please suggest me some itemisation for AM to win, because i tried. and spectre seems to just out DPS am
i'd say AM's really good against spectre
Jacked - BKB & Spectre does no dmg. Also Silver Edge is v. good. If you can't rat it out, you will probably need one of those.
illusions disable desolate, right?
so while punching into each others face am should spam blink to create those uncontrollable illiusions, disabling one of her spells. thats gonna be a problem for her imo.
Am with butter, silver edge, abyssal, manta, and some dps items shud be able to beat Spectre
Maybe satanic
No shit desolate plus manta kills people 1v1 but what idiot is going to get caught out late game by a spec 1v1? Late game is all team fights.
am lategame is hardcore rat