General Discussion

General DiscussionCan winning Dota 2 be less about picking and more about playing?

Can winning Dota 2 be less about picking and more about playing? in General Discussion
Boom

    Only players who have invested thousands of hours into this game will notice that picking well is what factors the most in winning Dota, not playing well, winning Dota as I see it now is 75% picking and 25% playing, Dota loses a lot of appeal after you realize this fact, want an example? See this game? https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3886807372 I picked Sniper and effortlessly won the game, Axe can't reach me with his Berserker's Call and Counter Helix as I kite him around with my Shrapnel, he can be the best Axe player there is and it would mean nothing, he's just an Axe what can he do? This is the same for his teammates as well, they have no get-in-close abilities to close the gap with sniper, they loss not because they played the heroes wrong, but because they didn't pick the heroes right.
    What does this mean for Dota? It's that it's a predictable game, in that in a players of equal skill, hero matchups is what will decide who will struggle and who will have it easy.

    tldr version : You win Dota in picking phase, not in playing phase.

    Este tema ha sido editado
    Subaru

      hoo bruh, you dont know how frightening axe can be, but yeah, it is about drafting not just 1 hero but 5 hero.
      In the end i tihink it is about how your support close what your carry lack and counter others carry

      Boom

        Axe is frightening? Yeah pair him up with Tusk and he can be frightening, but see that's the problem in this game, all about picking, you didn't pick right? Go suffer then.

        Talker

          Pick is important, but do you see, how VP was dominating? It was not because of picks, but because of the skill of players.

          Yes, there are some obvious counters, which teams cant overcome. But thats the reason for banning phase.

          Boom

            We are not pro players, Dota 2's playerbase is made up of pubs and not pros, only a few can do what VP can do, even among pro players. Don't base the game around 20 players or so, base the game around the millions of players playing it.

            Rocket

              Draft is important but it isn’t all about the draft. Everyone has an ‘effective mmr’ for every hero and if they try to counter pick with a low effective mmr hero (I.e. one they are crap at) then it doesn’t matter if they are the hard counter of the enemy.

              Vandal

                Picking matters when everyone else is in the same skill bracket (Which is usually the case). But Put a 10k mmr player next to your brackets players and he can first pick his favorite hero and kill shit.

                Este comentario fue editado
                Quavo

                  You are 4k, you won a game against an axe who can't initiate by surprise and you decided to make a thread of it? Jeez..

                  Este comentario fue editado
                  Boom

                    And VP's skill is surely found in their picking, it's easy to fuck up picking in this game, I played several battlecup games so far and only won three. A local tournament I played at a month ago, we were two ancient players and three Divine 5 players, all three ranked on leaderboards, we still lost to a team of 3 ancients and 2 divines, guess the reason why? Mechanical skill can only get you as far as your picking skill.

                    Boom

                      It's not that hard to initiate by surprise, 2k players can do it and do it unintentionally, just initiate unseen in fog of war, is that hard to do? Do you have to be 5k to do that? Fuck you for using the MMR argument.

                      Northern_Eclipse

                        To put it simply, in games of equal skill level, you look for small advantages in order to beat your opponent. Drafting can be very important, but only if you play your draft correctly. You may have a fantastic midgame push lineup, but that doesn't matter if you don't push at the right time.
                        tldr: playing the hero matters more, you just only notice the differences, i.e drafting.

                        Vandal

                          Okay I'll share the little I know about this. It's a much lower skill bracket but everyone (teammates and opponent) is in the same skill (ish) so bear with me.

                          Have you ever played an AM game where you had to defend HG within 25 minutes and lost? or when enemy has huge kill potential on you and you just feel like It was unwinnable due to the picks. Someone like you would say you lose those kind of games because AM was a bad pick or team had no synergy with AM? because what the hell can an AM do so early in game...
                          I mean It's AM we're talking about he has 2 active spells and just blinks and farms, avoids fights unless sure to win, until fat enough. sounds simple right?

                          https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3880297551 (14 mins Bfury, 21 mins Manta, everything going smoothly but still felt unwinnable) How could I have won that.

                          I gave the replay to my way higher skill friend, He said I didn't have the luxury of afk farming, and instead of farming, before the enemy forces teamfights, I have to push lanes and wait in the trees (He said way more but this is the short version). I watched my replay few times trying to figure out when I shouldn't have just farmed and should've forced rotations instead. I still wasn't convinced the game was winnable.

                          My next AM game It felt even worse, I had a slower start, and we lost 2 sets of raxes very early (probably was before 25 minutes). It felt unwinnable too, then I started doing the thing I was told, forcing depushes, making them follow me around, cutting waves, and farming half as effficient. Here is how it ended:
                          https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3883735794

                          If I was any better and had more experience, I'm sure It wouldn't even come to losing 2 sets of raxes.

                          What's worse is, I see boosters first pick AM and still have a winrate of 80-90% and just don't care about the draft.
                          Now your bracket is probably way more difficult than mine, But there are still players with twice your MMR so I'm sure they can make your bracket look like tards despite the picks (I have seen first pick Visages with incredible win rates)

                          tldr : if you GIT GUD you can still win

                          Este comentario fue editado
                          Boom

                            The advantage is not small did I make that clear already? And it's not about playing the draft correctly, it's about drafting the right heroes against the enemy, don't do it right and you will be penalized severely.

                            Boom

                              Where do you see those boosters who first pick AM? That's unheard of, boosters when first picking use heroes like clinkz, heroes that are good at disorganized players, you are not being helpful to yourself using AM for boosting.

                              Vandal

                                more than a few.
                                Nowadays they boost accounts with whatever hero you tell them to, It just costs a little more.
                                Example: https://boostore.net/product/dotammrboost/

                                Ps I'm a shit AM but I know great ones can win at my bracket easily through all counters, just like I can win with PL through all counters (the ones I lose are still winnable)

                                Este comentario fue editado
                                Boom

                                  Your first AM game was impossible to win, even your higher skill friend can't win that game using AM, you are playing against a really good riki, look at his profile, https://www.dotabuff.com/players/353436923, it looks like you are playing against a booster, who uses riki, 37 kills and 1 death? 28 kills and 5 deaths? Very suspicious.

                                  Riki eats AM, a good riki player will abuse this, AM is good at heroes with high mana pools and riki is opposite of that, also riki's ultimate always hits the right hero, that means even if AM uses manta style, it's useless, riki's ulti ignores illu, i could go on and on, the point is riki can do things to AM that other heroes can't, can bristle do that? Does Clockwerk uses an ability that is good at anti mage?

                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                  Boom

                                    If your second game has that riki on their side, you will lose, you have Storm Spirit as your teammate, another hero Riki eats for breakfast.

                                    Vandal

                                      Yes the Riki was a booster, who trolled us and built 2 silver edges -_- Which proves my point even more. He owned me because He was a booster not because of the pick. I mean He was mid against a Sniper and against a Slardar and a well fed and freefaming AM. and still made a fool of us.

                                      The number of games I've had to play against PL counters like LC and ES is more than I can count. Probably 75% of my games had at least one counter. I'm used to it and just think harder in teamfights or pickoffs.

                                      I have seen boosters with over 40 streaks on a single hero with close to 100% win rate (a lot of them were first picks too, to make sure nobody else picks that role). There had to be some counters along the way. right?

                                      Talker

                                        The thing is that VP, LGD, Secret, Liquid, who are top teams are the TOP of the table now. Why? Because of their skills. They can use heroes to maximum of their effect. If you consider what VP did (and I started discussion "why the fuck i have russtards in my team") in the tournament last year picking every game different heroes, untill last game and still got to final.

                                        While pros can use really wide pool of heroes (8+ each), rest of players can play 3-5 heroes on the level.

                                        If I pick Venomancer as a counter to Axe (or whatever) I will still lose the game. Because I am complete shit on venomancer. Ever when he was amazing I got shit WR on veno.

                                        If you pick AM as a counter vs my medusa, guess what happens? I will shit on you, because your AM sux and my medusa is pretty good.

                                        So yea, draft matters. But within the skill of players. Even Axe when played by good player can shit on inexperienced sniper (me) will fuck up sniper at the end.

                                        Talker

                                          But yea, there are games where you win by better draft and are unwinnable - probably 1/4 games is won in draft already. The rest are won on map.

                                          Shou

                                            Axe gets kited by sniper?
                                            The whole point is that u jump first and sniper dies to blademail
                                            It's not even a rlly crushing counter pick that is a good illustration of ur point, like brood or pl into no aoe.
                                            Ur showing a matchup with a lot of nuance that can easily go either way, and saying "pick something and auto win LOOOL"

                                            cartel

                                              I miss when cookie boosted us by randoming and going mid with whatever he gets :'(

                                              Anonymous mode- No chat

                                                sadly you’re both right. At the same skill level it’s 75-25 pick/skill.

                                                Otherwise it’s 75-25 skill/pick for smurfers. Which is why if you’re at divine people are such huge dicks about what you pick, no matter how well you play.

                                                sia

                                                  @vandal making me proud son x)

                                                  ...

                                                    Lol u played vs bad axe. Almost instapick every single game axe into offlane, 100% wr up to this day, the only loss is because of a leaver after fb. I can even play as shit and feed like 0-6, then still come back and fuck people. https://www.dotabuff.com/players/861244292/matches?hero=axe

                                                    SASA POPOVIC

                                                      Yes you win or lose games in drafting phase unless someone who has drafting advantage doesnt throw the game. Wich is totaly possible evryone lost at least dozen games that supose to be ez win.

                                                      Its dota everything is possible and shit happens.

                                                      lexdog

                                                        2 words..... GIT GUD

                                                        ETd

                                                          I dumpstered an Ancient 0 SF as with my (former) Archon 5 ass on Necro mid, despite everyone and their mother saying that this is a suicidal matchup for Necro, so get that "75% pick 25% skill" shit outta here. Also, picking properly is part of the game, isn't it?
                                                          Or the other day, I got bitch slapped around as PA by an enemy Timbersaw. Still won the game after I fell back, regrouped, and farmed while teammates made space.
                                                          Tldr? It's a fucking 5v5 team game, picks are a big factor yes, but skill and teamwork will shine through if you're good enough

                                                          SASA POPOVIC

                                                            Well ET that means you are divine stuck at archon bracket or that sf guy just had a bad day? One match doesnt really define you.

                                                            TheRRogue

                                                              Lol picks? Just look at sea , 5 man carry still win. Does that prove they play good at that hero? Maybe but my points is skill need to be supported by suitable draft so it can shines out and use at iy fullest effieciency

                                                              Cheap Laugh Guy

                                                                Drafting affects half the game. A renowned fact.
                                                                HOWEVER
                                                                The reason you won that game is because Medusa is trash.

                                                                She got highest networth but doesn't do shit somehow.
                                                                Maelstrom is a bad item on her too.
                                                                Look at her she's got Ring and two ultimate orbs WTF is she doing??

                                                                Cheap Laugh Guy

                                                                  JUST LOOK AT THIS GUY'S MEDUSA WINRATE
                                                                  https://www.dotabuff.com/players/317971715
                                                                  He's absolute trash
                                                                  Probably an acc buyer or overcalibrated
                                                                  He has an Ancient medal but playing High Skill solo ranked games now?

                                                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                                                  Boom

                                                                    In that game my Sniper died 10 times, some of those deaths are from Axe initiating at me while I can't see him and popping blademail, what every Axe player would do, but he's still at a disadvantage, I only need to position my hero well and he won't get a good call in, just be wary of an Axe, that said, this is the late game where Axe can fight a sniper because he has a blink already, what about early game? Axe is guaranteed to lose the laning stage against Sniper, which makes this game predictable and one dimensional, it's not fun that when I picked Sniper I already know I will win early, then just need to not throw in the late game by positioning my Sniper so that Axe can't get a good call in.

                                                                    Player 345996680

                                                                      Lol i have no idea how you managed to not lose mid to sf as necro. Only possible if sf is herald.

                                                                      Boom

                                                                        "Yes the Riki was a booster, who trolled us and built 2 silver edges -_- Which proves my point even more. " -Vandal

                                                                        Boosting is not normal dota, the dota I'm talking about is a dota of two teams with equal skill and knowledge of the game, this means Archon vs Archon or Divine vs Divine, not an Archon vs 4 Archons and Divine. A Divine playing in an Archon bracket can get a 60% winrate by playing support really well, 80% using a core, almost 100% when counterpicking, but he can't do that when he is playing in his own Divine bracket. Divine bracket consists of players who have perfected their mechanical skill and knowledge of the game, in this bracket, to get a good winrate you will always need to rely on drafting advantage, this doesn't have to be counterpicking, it can be meta hero picking, you need to draft the right hero to get a 54%+ winrate when playing against a player with equal skill. Picking a hero is just one right click and a lot of thinking, but it's the most deciding factor in winning the game against equally skilled players.

                                                                        Cheap Laugh Guy

                                                                          ^But this clearly isn't a equally skilled game
                                                                          THE MEDUSA'S AN INCONSISTENT PLAYER

                                                                          Their lineup actually have a better lane than your team but somehow they lost their lanes, except Medusa but he's trash.
                                                                          This just shows that they don't have any idea what to do with a Pudge + Jak. Because these two heroes are not catch like Tusk, NS or ES.
                                                                          I DO HAVE AN IDEA OF WTF TO DO WITH THOSE HEROES
                                                                          Pudge should get Stout Shield and trade hits to secure lane for offlane Axe (Pudge is nerfed and ppl still play him Boots with the 10% slow Rot lvl1 thinking they can kill)
                                                                          While Jak secures lane for safelane
                                                                          These two are quite the tanky supports and Riki + Undying shouldn't be able to fuck em up so hard.

                                                                          BUT NO
                                                                          THEY GOT SHAT ON after 5th minute mark The networth gap is so large despite their Medusa is farming ever happily
                                                                          And it gets worse and worse HOW CAN A SNIPER COUNTER AXE TO A POINT THE WHOLE TEAM SUCKS?? NO WAY
                                                                          It's so fucking obvious the whole team wasn't performing well in this game
                                                                          The Medusa has same damage as Pudge! Like how long was she jungling and watching team die?

                                                                          JDF8

                                                                            arrgh i hate people like you op

                                                                            ur not even right, picking is like 30% of the game. it only determines how easy/hard it is for you to have impact. impact determines who wins

                                                                            so many retards who will think theyve lost in pregame in their ape minds and thus throw immediately out of some retarded desire to make their prediction come true

                                                                            Cheap Laugh Guy

                                                                              I wish I could watch how the game went but when they have a decent lane draft but somehow shit starts to rain nonstop after 3rd minute mark with such a decent lineup. (That means you Sniper countering Axe thing hasn't even started and isn't a factor yet)
                                                                              It's just enough to know they're not performing this game.

                                                                              Boom

                                                                                "The reason you won that game is because Medusa is trash."
                                                                                His Medusa got trashed because he's playing against a Sniper, Medusa has no abilities to close the gap with Sniper's high range, and no abilities to avoid being kited by Sniper's Shrapnel, Medusa needs to use items like Force Staff and Bkb, but Sniper can use the same items too, putting Medusa in a sure lose disadvantage, a Sniper can fight a Medusa with a 2000 gold disadvantage and still reliably win, both heroes have a low skill ceiling and since it's a low skill ceiling, ahhhhh you get the point already do you?

                                                                                tldr Sniper -> Medusa when playing against an equally skilled player, no boosters.

                                                                                Upgrayedd

                                                                                  so many retards who will think theyve lost in pregame in their ape minds and thus throw immediately out of some retarded desire to make their prediction come true

                                                                                  agreed. but the thing is lots of people do "offbeat" picks as a way of griefing/throwing. if you are going to play a hero in an unconventional fashion then you should reassure your team that you know what you are doing and you are taking the game seriously. a few weeks ago I had an axe teammate select last and pick midlane in pick phase. I asked him 'wtf are you doing" and he responded with "don't worry, I got this". that was all it took. that he had the decency to respond to me was all I needed to remain level because the majority of players cant even seem to manage that courtesy. funny thing is, he was laning against a sniper, as well, and lost the lane although we won the game.

                                                                                  Consider the following scenario:

                                                                                  Me: why are you playing axe mid against sniper?

                                                                                  there are two categories of responses

                                                                                  A) f*** you, I do what I want
                                                                                  B) don't worry, I got this

                                                                                  the first demonstrates you are selfish and don't give a crap about anyone else. if you automatically interpret "wtf are you doing" as a challenge to your ego then you are probably just an unpleasant person or destructively socialized. the second demonstrates you are aware of other people and considerate of them. I see people doing the former and then wondering why they are on the losing team. often, all people are looking for is a little reassurance that you aren't throwing/griefing.

                                                                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                                                                  Boom

                                                                                    "THE MEDUSA'S AN INCONSISTENT PLAYER"
                                                                                    That player has a 52.26% winrate overall, it's consistent, he only played Medusa 6 times, but still played well, his Medusa averages 6.33 kills and 5 deaths over those 6 games.

                                                                                    "Pudge should get Stout Shield and trade hits to secure lane for Axe"
                                                                                    How can Pudge trade hits with a Sniper? I did die to Pudge once early game, when Pudge hooked me out of vision and my two supports were in the other lanes, but Pudge can't do that twice, I only need a support help me, put ward so I can see Pudge at all times, and my support actively prevents Axe and Pudge from closing on me, my Sniper has Shrapnel, which Axe and Pudge can't avoid, they will be surely hit and be kited. Sniper and his two supports only has to put in effort and they will win, even if Jakiro comes in to help too, since Jakiro is also kited by shrapnel, has short ranged 1st and 3rd skill and his 2nd skill Ice Path needs 3 levels to be effective and deals little damage, Sniper is guaranteed to win early game against Axe Pudge Jakiro and that makes this game easy to predict.

                                                                                    Boom

                                                                                      "While Jak secures lane for safelane "
                                                                                      Jakiro is fighting against a Timbersaw offlane, please look properly, I have no need to explain why Jakiro can't secure a lane when fighting against Timber right? Think for yourself. And see this gets my point across even more, this game is decided picking, a Jakiro can't reliably secure a lane against timber, at best Jakiro can only make it even.

                                                                                      Boom

                                                                                        "These two(Pudge and Jakiro)are quite the tanky supports and Riki + Undying shouldn't be able to fuck em up so hard."
                                                                                        Riki can't fuck them up hard early, but Undying can really fuck them up hard, both Pudge and Jakiro have slow attack speeds and can't destroy a tombstone fast. I will repeat this over and over again, Dota 2 is mostly decided by picking, if you want to win against Undying, you need to pick right.

                                                                                        "HOW CAN A SNIPER COUNTER AXE TO A POINT THE WHOLE TEAM SUCKS??"
                                                                                        Sniper countered their whole enemy lineup, Death Prophet, Medusa, Jakiro, Pudge, Axe, all heroes easily kited by Sniper's superior range and Shrapnel, the only way to kill Sniper is Axe call + Blademail, but that is hard to do when the Sniper is aware of that happening, a Shadowblade Axe? Put sentries and vision, Get initiated by Axe? Position your hero so Axe can't get a good opportunity and has to use his call on your other teammates, if Sniper puts in the same effort to the game as Axe, then Axe will lose undoubtedly.

                                                                                        Boom

                                                                                          "arrgh i hate people like you op"
                                                                                          Please don't use words that can be used against you, look at the winrate on your profile, 73.02% over a hundreds of games, your most played hero Tinker 38 games with 92.11% winrate.

                                                                                          arrgh i hate people like you boosters,
                                                                                          the burn hurts so much as if you got hit by a Finger of Death.

                                                                                          Player 345996680

                                                                                            just pick slark and kill sniper 10000000 times, ez

                                                                                            Shou

                                                                                              autism

                                                                                              Boom

                                                                                                https://files.fm/u/z79qkhvu
                                                                                                I uploaded the replay but it's not video form, you have to paste the file in Steam/steamapps/common/dota 2 beta/game/dota/replays then view it in-game.

                                                                                                Cheap Laugh Guy

                                                                                                  Open your eyes.
                                                                                                  He's an Ancient[4] player now playing in High Skill solo ranked. 4.3k dropping to around 3.5k.
                                                                                                  That's impossible unless he intentionally throws every game.

                                                                                                  6 kills 5 deaths is trash on Medusa especially when he had so much items in those games.

                                                                                                  Boom

                                                                                                    I looked at his account again, https://www.dotabuff.com/players/317971715/matches?enhance=overview&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking

                                                                                                    He has a 50.32% winrate playing ranked excluding unranked games, how can he drop from 4.3k to 3.5k with a 50.32% winrate? Would love talking to idiots again. You are also ignoring everything I have said to you for my past 4 comments which means you won't admit your stupidity. Dota 2 when playing against equally skilled players is 75% picking and 25% playing get it? Only when you are boosting is when you can win a game even if you fuck up your picking.

                                                                                                    Este comentario fue editado
                                                                                                    Boom

                                                                                                      You can only master this game for so long, when you pit masters against each other, they can only win by outsmarting the enemy in the draft, take control of the game and not throw the game by making flawless movements, so predictable, in a game of equally skilled players, the game is over already after the drafting ends. See how horrible the game design is? Every hero should be able to stand against any other hero in the game, you know why pro teams like picking Sand King alot? Flexibility, he's hard to counter, his counters are Zeus, Phoenix, Underlord, all three heroes are easily counterable and easily shutdown themselves so even if Sand King is picked, no one will pick the counters to that hero.

                                                                                                      Este comentario fue editado
                                                                                                      Boom

                                                                                                        https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/8hhkpb/competitive_meta_trends_epicenter_xl/
                                                                                                        "why did icefrog kill enchantress :(" "Disco pony back to tier 1 pick after 3 years in the dumpster" "Fun fact: Slark 11 wins 2 loses." "who played spectre ? wtf how did i miss that" "Why cant they give WW some love"

                                                                                                        All about PICKING and not playing, I am always told to git gud, well git gud is it then, I see that Ench and WW is trash right now, let's pay a booster now to only use those trash heroes when boosting, no one did that before because it's such a sadistic thing to do and I would be happily proven wrong. If you are an Ench or WW main, you will lose more than you win even if you play well, because it's not a right pick. Picking is not just to counterpicking, it's also meta hero picking, if you want to win, you have to play the hero the game wants you too.

                                                                                                        Este comentario fue editado