General DiscussionBloodthorn on Sven

Solves his mana problems (especially for the storm hammer talent)
More reliable at deleting heroes (I am pretty sure it is also higher dps with the active, and also there's the soul burn)
And provides another lockdown

it does everything daedalus does better except hitting someone who is bkbed

a lot of your targets are people who dont have dispels

it amps ur pickoff potential massively, and lets you sustain and gives ias which sven needs badly. daedalus is just worse most of the time imo

This is actually true for pretty much any crit builders, I think one of them needs to be reworked to be more niche

Also it gives attack speed

give daedalus an active man :v

Thanks. This helped quite a bit. So for clarification, the only time I wouldn't buy bloodthorn is vs heroes who buy lotus/have team dispells?

So to sum it up:

1) Is more expensive but Sven is one of the heroes it is both good on and can farm it pretty fast
2) Deals waaaay more damage with the active than Daedalus does passively, also cleaving guaranteed crits is nice
3) Provides all the mana sustain you will ever need without the necessity of purchasing an echo sabre (not ideal most games)
4) Provides another disable, but can also be used together with your stun to make your DPS skyrocket
5) Provides attack speed which you will lack if/when you disassemble MoM
6) Provides a linkens breaker without building a suboptimal item for the hero (halberd is kinda good on Sven against some heroes but it is not even close to being optimal, bthorn is optimal) good luck trying to kil weaver and morphling without a bloodthorn
7) Even though you get it late, chances are you can use it after the target has used their dispels
8) Makes it unnecessary to commit your ultimate and bkb to kill split pushing heroes when you know they are alone (if they are tanky you still ult)
9) Is more slot efficient than a daedalus and you probably won't regret it unless you die without a buyback and the enemy thrones you
10) it makes a sexy sound, can't argue with that now can you
11) If it forces the enemy to save dispels for the target you initiate on, or buy additional dispels, they are playing reactionary because you are a problem, so this is still good and you can play around this
12) Less RNG, if you depend on crits to kill a hero, you'd hope they are at least reliable, I can remember some dreadful situations where I literally lost games because I didn't get a single crit during my 2 second stun, when I jumped people, so I die when they are all at 10-20% hp

Thanks. This helped quite a bit. So for clarification, the only time I wouldn't buy bloodthorn is vs heroes who buy lotus/have team dispells?

An alternate scenario is when you have to complete the item to get as much damage as possible (defending hg for example), but you're short on gold and buying a bloodthorn would mean you have no buyback. I mean, buyback on sven is still fucking crap but it's better having it than not because you might be picked off without using your ultimate.

I would still buy it every game even if the enemy has dispels because the active has way too much utility to pass up on, and if you're smart and paying attention you can catch enemies offguard and they can't dispel it ALONE if you stack bthorn with the stun (their teammates can still use lotus orb to remove it).

im not a sven expert but if they have a lotus + an abaddon or some shit obviously bloodthorn will be less useful than it normally is

having a huge range silence is just a very high impact ability imo, and a good player will make bloodthorn active go further than what daedalus gives most of the time, which is ~15-20% mroe dps than thorn without active. also thorn is higher building dps than dae im pretty sure due to giving ias

also thorn is higher building dps than dae im pretty sure due to giving ias

Wow. I just had a meaningful conversation on Dotabuff. Who would've thought it was possible? The only other quality forum post I can remember is Cookie's guide that got taken down (idk why, it was pretty darn good).
https://www.dotabuff.com/topics/2017-05-04-mmr-boosting-15k-guide
Thanks everyone

Daedalus is good don’t underestimate it. I usually go Daedalus unless I really need silence.

In summary:
Bloodthorn for silence/pickoff/linkens pierce/reliable dps/improving more on Sven teamfighting awareness
Daedalus for higher, less consistent dps /vs purges

Just remember that with the new patch, it's highly likely that Daedalus will be buffed making it viable more viable on Sven again.

It is very viable, it is just that you'd prefer to have a bthorn if you can afford it in most cases. Sometimes you just want to get that big damage item and end the game, and a wait for additional 2k gold will delay the game in the enemy's favor. Sometimes you also don't even need a damage item, but that's a different topic altogether.

I don't think daedalus going to be significantly buffed

As I trend I see, straight damage items were the dominant items for ti 1, and as the game evolved and people learned to play and to mid-max every aspect of the game, straight damage items are slowly decreasing in their viability compared to utility and stats items. And as we see nowadays they are very rarely the best choice (for example sniper, once used to build straight up attack, with mkb, daedalus, MoM, and so on, now he builds a lot of other aspects, with items like pike, mjollnir etc')
I think the most noticeable item example is diffusal. Which is suddenly broken, who built it asides of pl 2-3 years ago?

Daedalus is one if those straight up items

Unless u really need extra pickoff potential or silence, daedalus is better ever since bt cd nerf imo

Daedalus is the best damage item for sven.

The reason why Bloodthorne is being built nowadays is because when you disassemble MoM, the Quarterstaff can be use for Malevolence > Bloodthorne.

If your not going to build MoM (like some player rush SnY), Daedalus is a better approach. Coz bloodthorne is damn too expensive.

157 games with 61% win rate on sven

I always go for Bloodthorne if I hit a proper timing for it. BT let you make plays that Deadalus cant do. You can use it in different ways and BT active also gives trustrike.

It can be used different ways:
- To initiate on supports without a need to use ult
- To initiate on a primary target and silencing nearest enemy that has bkb piercing spell (eg. Bane, Pudge) or saving skills (Oracle, Omni, Sd, Dazzle) - so you prevent them from saving their core
- To take rosh faster
- for breaking Weavers or Storm linken, but then its better to hit your stun first
etc.

when u need broke linken.
u can sacrifice bloodthorn/storm hammer, and cast the other one for disable.

@OP

You're the kind of people I report

So what's the proper timing for bt on sven

Around 30-35 min mark. Depends if u build Echo or SnY. Ofc after Pt, Mom, Sny/echo, Blink, BKB.

Sometimes you want AC instead of BT if enemies have too much physical dmg.

But honestly you can start ending the game just with Mom and SnY. You dont even need blink for it, especially if u have Ogre as a support. But as everything in dota - it depends.

There are heroes that scale better with raw damage than attack speed though. like troll or clinkz get more from daedalus considering the cost IF they dont need silence

Also Daedalus is likely better in teamfights DPS-wise unless you really need the Bloodthorn active. Not sure about Sven though but it feels that way for SF or Clinkz because they naturally have better attackspeed than Sven.

Daedalus needs an active skill, or a reliable damage output, like a guaranteed crit every 10 seconds or something.