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ExNunc
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    Raizoh
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      Anthrax & Indoraptor
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        Stretch

          Personally, I think Dark Willow is played optimally as a farming core in a duo offlane. She can definitely support but getting levels so that Shadow Realm has a large early game impact (essentially disrupting the enemy carry's farm in the laning stage) and items like Blink allows you to make plays and even act as the primary initiator in games where your team is lacking.

          Currently won all seven games I have played this role.

          Este comentario fue editado
          thewindsofwinter_

            Both sucks

            Apolyon-LinuxMR

              I understand the concept that you can utilize your sample size to reflect "real world" extrapolations based up win rate; however, you are ignoring the fact that even still players on your team don't really understand what the hero is doing with her casts and her aggressive posture.

              As time goes on you should expect to see her win rate with many mid matchups to be considerably more interesting than your claim that 48% is abysmal. Currently your logic could be extended to Templar Assassin and therefore, nobody should ever play that hero in any role lane or way at all because her win rate is such garbage.

              Logically, we can all acknowledge that she is currently weak, by she is by no means a bad mid when her pick is appropriate. Your absolutist discussion in this blog post is very reddit 2k.

              AvoNKraD

                This blogpost was way uneducated, one of the worst reads yet.

                monka

                  I would disagree what dark willow is a bad mid hero. Her magic damage output is extremely high, she can solo kill most of the heroes on lvl 6, good in lane when played right and really hard to gank, great farm disruptor and has an enormous teamfight impact even when underfarmed.

                  Hey

                    Don't be dissuaded friends - Willow can most definitely dominate in a core position. Stop misusing statistics KawaiiSocks.

                    Scrub

                      I think you need to not make definitive statements less than a month after release.

                      burger time

                        Yeah, I usually take the blog posts with a grain of salt since the writers aren't exactly the most reliable.

                        GTMDAME

                          Dark Willow might not be a carry, but she's really strong in mid when played by the right hands. Early level advantage makes her a strong ganker, and her real show-time starts after she gets blink dagger. It's the first time that a support who needs early game level advantages goes to mid in data history. I good DW player can dominate mid game and thus gives the hard carry much space to farm up, who then will take over and end the game.

                          GTMDAME

                            This author only played 7 games with dark willow, 6 of them as support role in safe lane (and another 1 in jungle???). He only made the argument that DW is not good as a mid hero by the numbers. As someone mentioned above, there are plenty of mid heroes that does not have a good win rate. I believe as time goes, more and more players will realize that DW is not a bad mid hero.

                            MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                              Side note to anyone wanting to try something stupid that will end with toxicity:

                              Invis is not broken by rolling thunder hits. You can cast items and spells while in the ball, so just shadowblade and be a menace.

                              mECh

                                Pangolier - she?

                                rochboy

                                  Oh stats show willow isn't a mid. There boys, we got our answer. I'm still going to play her mid tho.

                                  >:)

                                  123

                                    Pangolier not a hero 4Head

                                    Este comentario fue editado
                                    MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                      Just to provide a little pushback for everyone who doesn't like the stats based argument:

                                      All numbers are based on 7.07b.

                                      This is a game of stats, where a hero that wins 40 or less percent of its games is considered downright awful, with a few notable exceptions. A hero that wins somewhere within the range of 56-60% is considered frustratingly untouchable, with no exceptions. This means there is a roughly 20 point scale that almost all heroes fall under.

                                      The current spread is 35% to 57%, making it a 22 point scale, but for the purposes of this example I'm keeping the scale as a 40% WR gets 0/20 points, a 60% gets all 20 points. I know it's a little confusing, but bear with me.

                                      Looking at this way:

                                      Lone Druid currently gets roughly -4/20
                                      Pangolier sits at 2
                                      Pugna gets a 5
                                      Dark Willow gets a 7
                                      (Here's where it gets interesting)
                                      Phoenix gets 8
                                      Venomancer almost gets a 10
                                      Techies gets a 10 (50% winrate)
                                      Beastmaster gets a 12
                                      Elder Titan get s a 13
                                      Underlord gets a 15
                                      Spectre gets a 17 (currently sitting in 1st with 57% winrate)

                                      Taking into account other heroes' winrates is important when considering the overall power of a hero. Right now, 75% of heroes in Dota are putting out better numbers than Dark Willow. Meepo, Enchantress, Death Prophet, Techies, Leshrac, as of this writing, all of them are posting better numbers. Sure, some of that you can attribute to people not knowing the hero well enough to understand the limitations, but why is it so bold to think that maybe it's the wrong lane for her? She places 77th in winrates for mid, but posts a 53% winrate when roaming (2nd highest winrate of 18 heroes Dotabuff has enough stats for roaming). Right now, only 18 heroes have an overall winrate of 53%.

                                      When she moves from mid to roaming, she gains a whopping 6% winrate. And all of her damage comes from skills that need NO farm! Why tie up your mid with her when she does better in other areas, when you know there are 76 other heroes that will do better in mid than her?

                                      (keep in mind these are all pub stats, and there are some stupid winrate numbers for lanes due to very specific niche lane situations. Hence, Visage holds top spot for mid right now. What...)

                                      Este comentario fue editado
                                      Buchibu

                                        Well Brock Hall shows us how education matter ROFL

                                        MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                          Don't get me wrong, I understand the value of placing heroes in weird situations, and heroes definitely have multiple possible lanes (bristle, timbersaw for a time, sniper, centaur for a time). Back in the day I would run Weaver mid if it was against a Pudge (oh noes you hooked me whatever will I do?). But that was an outlier, and that's the direction I see this going as well: her mid viability will be about as much as old bane: possible, but...wasteful in most situations.

                                          Sleight of My Fist In You...

                                            i think brock is a nub just like author

                                            sapi yang tidak menulis

                                              How exactly do you play dark willow as a core? Yes you'll probably stomp mid, just like how people do when they play any burst heavy support as a mid. But how exactly do you scale? Her only damage ability is bedlam, people. And if you're trying to get a lot of farm and levels, playing her like an offlane pugna will give her more than what she needs.

                                              Supp Player please give m...

                                                I haven't tried DW mid. But playing her as roaming is amazing. Almost always win the lanes because of nukes and catch and I can play pos 5 poor support and have amazing impact on the game without ever going near fights. With the stun cast range nerf this became a little less possible but still her other skills allow you to stay far from fight except bedlam which as a support I use only if we are chasing or I am solo killing. I would say she is a bit like skywrath mage, can win mid but playing pos 5 or roaming has almost as much impact without the risk of losing the late game to accidental death due to bad position.

                                                My argument against mid DW is firstly she does not scale like TA does. Secondly the few games I had an enemy DW mid, she owned early but fell off as soon as the mid game fights started. She is an easy pick off unless you outclass your opponents by a large amount which the matchmaking system does not usually allow. Maybe if you are amazing at playing her mid she might be good like carry IO. HE can win games but you don't see it very often probably because it is extremely easy to punish.

                                                - From the diary of a 3k scrub

                                                Ayoth

                                                  herp a derp im a 5k mmr player on dotabuff i can bash any other player whose mmr is lower than mine without making an argument at all and people will still agree with me

                                                  Kiru

                                                    It's very easy to see why Willow a bad mid: She doesn't scale outside of her abilities. She has no ability or anything that's good lategame. Once you are 18, that's it. That's your damage. Till the end of the game. In addition to that she is also a horrible farmer, so pos 2 is even harder. You are supposed to actually farm there to an extend. And you'll probably be a glass-cannon for all time as well, with your "escape" being something you probably want to use offensively and is only working against enemies without any AoE anyway.

                                                    Pretty much all mids are expected to do more. To scale more. Take Queen. Lower than normal BAT, good auto attack range and blink. Excellent abilities to have late-game and allows for solid scaling. Also farms well.
                                                    Then Puck. His lack of lategame presence is definitely a thing, and in part why he's played in the offlane quite a bit as well. However, he farms well and with Aghs gets a strong tool against magic immunity. Generally solid enough at snowballing and so on. (Again, Willow doesn't farm well at all, and her major damage tool has a 40sec cooldown on lvl1 now. Good luck.)

                                                    If you look at Willow, you should be able to easily see why she's such a great support. Yes, as a support you can't use Bedlam too well. That's true. Solo killing is much harder. But once Willow is a bit more known, Bedlam will be weaker anyway. It's like Jugger Ult. A lot of her early success was really people just not knowing that you shouldn't just go close to her without a plan. Just as it was with Arc Warden and Flux, which is countered by a third of the hero pool.

                                                    Đraiken

                                                      I see a lot of mid willow players here.
                                                      Please keep doing it. I'll keep winning my lane all the time.

                                                      Honestly you only lose mid to Dark Willow if you never played against the hero. Otherwise she's really not as strong as the stubborn mid DW on the comments are trying to say.

                                                      Can't even see how you could ever die to her ult mid if you have ANY notion of positioning... her stun takes 4 seconds and the maze is dodgeable. She can't get near you unless you're out of position.

                                                      Gerati

                                                        u need 2 have pango in lane with a mega support for like 20 min. Only giving him farm as if he is void or AM

                                                        Sima Yi

                                                          yesterday vs dark willow mid with invoker mid, pretty ez game with DW dead in pretty much 1 combo XDD

                                                          Kascayde

                                                            I'm 5-2 with mid DW this article is BS

                                                            O N N E T B O Y Z ™

                                                              People need to stop comparing mid DW to QoP or TA, of course she's not that type of mid, she's more like an ES or Magnus. Going mid doesn't mean you're a pos 2; she can get a fast Veil or Blink to help her reach her spikes faster, as she doesn't scale for the late game at all.

                                                              MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                @World's Greatest Mom ™

                                                                In the case of ES, the amount of useful items he can get to bolster his late game damage and utility is quite high, and giving him the farm priority will pay off in the late game.

                                                                Magnus can farm very well too, which he needs in order to grab that refresher orb to put out two very powerful RPs.

                                                                Puck is elusive enough to make the most use out of a blink, euls, aghs, and dagon in some cases. Hex too.

                                                                DW doesn't have any way to bolster that late game dmg. Her ultimate either sends people away (it's nice but it isn't a teamfight ult) or does a hard set amount of damage that falls off. You're right that she falls off, and there are certainly teams out there that aim for that early game, but we already have tons of those kinds of heroes that will do that job better. TA is one of them. SS, Viper, Huskar. I'd choose any of them over DW for an early game mid situation.

                                                                mllcg

                                                                  Dark Willow makes a good offlane. He has escape, stun and a nuke. not to mention his paiful ulti..

                                                                  And Pangolier is just meh..

                                                                  too "paper", damage output isn't the best early and late making him a very mid game hero...

                                                                  =/

                                                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                                                  Northway

                                                                    dark willow is just cancer as position 4, pangolier is just nice when enemy have him

                                                                    Geshtapo

                                                                      I don't like Pangolier and its personality is poor I guess. They took it from Zoro legend too. However, I think dark willow that has a great potential for pro games

                                                                      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                        @Geshtapo

                                                                        It's a muskateer, note the French accent. Muskateers are not just a group of three or four fabled vigilantes either, it is just a soldier who carried a musket.

                                                                        Este comentario fue editado
                                                                        Caladian

                                                                          These same people that think that dark willow is a core are most likely the same people that played heroes in the jungle in the last patch and this one.

                                                                          マテリス

                                                                            WOW, using wr on new heroes that no1 understand, srsly ?

                                                                            Can we recall the day arcwarden was trash nerfed, and earned ~+10% wr ? Simply cause that nerf to the underground of trash also completely deleted the shitty way zet was played

                                                                            Quinkerros

                                                                              Can you make a post about 7.07b please?

                                                                              Bobby Corwen

                                                                                I think dark willow has potential for a farming offlaner, either solo or dual lane. As long as they don't counter you with multiple aoe stuns that don't need targets you can pick up easy support kills all day. Dark Willow plus one can burn down a support in about 3 seconds and her bramble maze prevents escape and intervention from the carry.

                                                                                frances maya

                                                                                  She's weak af, buff please

                                                                                  MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                                    @マテリス

                                                                                    How would you nerf her capabilities to play mid then? She seems pretty hobbled in mid already yet people still try.

                                                                                    マテリス

                                                                                      well, to make it more mid oriented, while also nerfing her, you'd probably want to remove the not detectable part of her second spell; so she simply get 360 magic damage buff for one attack.

                                                                                      Less strong, but faster burst.

                                                                                      However if it was implented, then she'd need to throw bedlam instead of having it roaming in circle arround her, she is quite squishy, so removing the none detectable part means she cann't use bedlam anymore

                                                                                      And since all mid need some sort of wave clear, you'd give bramble maze aoe damage when triggered, for 310 (but physical) dealing significantly less to hero, but allowing to clean a creep wave quite easily.
                                                                                      Alternatively, you could give bedlam immolation statue (instead of attacking) but reducing damage. It's low cd allow its usage for farming, and on the other hand you'd nerf her damage.

                                                                                      Anyway, no reason to remove the concept of this hero; it's cool as it is, she just need some tweak on value so she doesn't remain OP for absolutely no reason.

                                                                                      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

                                                                                        Sorry I meant how would you nerf her so people stop playing her mid?

                                                                                        I guess it's a moot point since if people really are hard set to play where she isn't that great then there's not much you can do

                                                                                        Infinity Iris

                                                                                          For everyone here saying that she is a strong mid laner i am going to put out a simple answer.
                                                                                          What does she offer to you in late game as a mid laner? Something more then any other mid laner out there?
                                                                                          No she does not. Why?
                                                                                          Puck outclasses her when it comes to control and his dmg even tho it's lower it is still high enough to compare them. Queen of Pain just stricly gives you way more dmg from and huge survivability, although she is probably the closest in comparison.
                                                                                          Invoker gives you more of everything but weaker early game.
                                                                                          Any potentional right clicker is almost allways better in late game.

                                                                                          Dark willow is a strong hero in the early lane dominance and mid game power if she wins the lane decisivly. The longer the game goes however she will become a very weak character. I can see her working in the mid lane if used with a support who can fill her job come late game (such as mirana or monkey king). But i do believe that she is way stronger played as a support as you do not require items to do the same job.
                                                                                          I think the article is not worded correctly yet in my eyes it is correctly said. She is not a strong mid hero. That does not mean she is a weak midlaner.
                                                                                          Bane is a insane mid laner, yet he is a weak mid hero. That goes the same way. Both are really strong on a lane but later on they are too weak to be worth the mid lane in the begging of the game. Unless that is your gameplan and you plan on switching role mid game to allow the pos 4 support to carry.

                                                                                          Counterpick or Feed

                                                                                            90% of those who are commenting that DW should be played mid are those who run 5 greedy core lineups with a jungler every game. They just simply don't understand what a good support can bring to the table, and what is really expected from a mid hero throughout the game. I give you a hint; solo killing heroes a couple of times is not gonna cut it most games.

                                                                                            Lion, Bane, WD, Pugna can also dominate midlane pretty easily in many lineups. Even Lich with the insane exp denial. But is it worth it for the TEAM? Most of the time not. Time to wake up ninjapickers, DotA is a TEAM game.

                                                                                            ChinaRulez

                                                                                              I carried a game with Pangolier.

                                                                                              tiny airlines

                                                                                                hm 880 damage with kaya is a good mid hero

                                                                                                Yugu-sothoth

                                                                                                  I'm pretty sure DW should be played as Support in early and mid game, then transitioning into hard carry when the late game is prolonged too much, thanks to her lv25 talent.

                                                                                                  I don't do meta

                                                                                                    Disagree, about pangolier is not a carry. He can alao do carry job in late game too. With radiance, shiva, octarine and mjornir. He is almost impossible to kill. Those item is expensive? Fear not he is as fast as anti mage or even better at farming. He is just like ember but more venerable with a moderate damage but faster spamable, killing enemy slowly and split push just like naga. That's how to play him as a carry.

                                                                                                    And even if he is not a right click hero, that doesn't mean he can't carry. Stop play him as a right clicker then you will be able to carry as pangolier.