but it sure won't hurt to hear player problems.. it really hurts to play with those type of guys that aren't the same as your skill level.. That simply removes the idea of fun in dota 2. and besides he can say what he wants as long as he isn't offending other people.
but it sure won't hurt to hear player problems.. it really hurts to play with those type of guys that aren't the same as your skill level.. That simply removes the idea of fun in dota 2. and besides he can say what he wants as long as he isn't offending other people.
Really? You're bitching about their winrate (which actually doesn't mean much, so you problably don't have a clue on how the MM works), while you have a pretty shitty one as well... And there are games on your match history that are just as bad or even worse then the ones you point out for those players...
This MM system is extremely consistent, and personally, I believe it works extremely well... I've tested many accounts, starting from scratch and even on ones that were pretty negative when I got them, and I always eventually get the same win rate over the same amount of games to "get through a bracket"... So it is doing it's job. You get to play with those people because you're as good as they are, like it or not.
It's just not working when a skilled dota player wants to play with a mate who is new to dota. Then you will rankend in an average skill-region in between. So the new player will eventually feed, because the average skill level of the game is way over his own.
But this still happens not that often. If you want to play on a constant level, you have to look for constant teammates, otherwise you have to deal with it.
Wow Battou, you are so hard, with your lvl 8 60% winratio. A mate of mine who is nearly the same skill lvl with me started a new acc and went on 85% Winratio for the first 80 games. Ofc i have games where i feed. Everyone has those games. Even Singsing failes some games he plays. But its just bullshit to take a new player to the game and match with him. Maybe Matchmaking tries to even out the 35% lvl 2 guy with me, or you rly wann tell me now, that i am as bad as a lvl 2 35% winratio dude?
Why do you even mention levels? Do you even know what they mean? NOTHING. It can't even gauge the amount of games someone has played... If a guy plays 100 games lasting 30+ minutes, with everyone on the game having battle bonuses he will end up with about 3x your level even if he never wins a single game.
And if your friend had 80% WR over his first 80 games and you believe he is on your level, then either you are completely blind or he got that by playing on the trench, because that's where you play.
Sry, did not get, why you are so offended. Matchmaking sucks balls, if you don't want to face it, not my problem. If someone starts new, he will get in games with other guys arround lvl 0. Chances are good, that those guys never played dota before. If you played arround 2k Games in dota 1 you will beat the crap out fof the others. The only games you lose are those, where your team feeds way too hard or you got a exp. player on the other team, that has started new.
Why i mention lvl? How else does the matchmaking work? It jugdges players or stacks by lvl and winratio and tries to make equal teams. But if you have someone with 33% on lvl 2 on your team, matchmaking cannot compansate him.
You are just ridcilous, i mean matchmaking is always a problem on every plattform i played dota. Dotaleague or Dotalicous had Matchmakingissues too, since the plattforms were not able to balance very highskilled and very lowskilled players.
It works in most games, but if you have 3 matches in a row with obviously new players, you get frustrated.
Or you wanna tell me how the great matchmaking manages to balance puppey or singsing? It simply can not. A guy with 35% winratio on the other hand is simply extreme bad, and matchmaking should block stacks with guys like him. If the matchmaking was perfect, everyone would have 50% Winratio. Your own stats tell us, that matchmaking does not work, since you are arround 60%.
"Why i mention lvl? How else does the matchmaking work? It jugdges players or stacks by lvl and winratio and tries to make equal teams."
No, it doesn't... None of those things are ever taken into account, like I said on my first post, you don't have a clue on how it works, that's why you're crying... The people you play with are as good as you (or as bad, if that's how you wanna call them).
It can't balance guys like puppey because there aren't enough guys like Puppey so he can play against them whenever he joins a game... It's not a matchmaking problem. Same with the guys who are way too low after hundreds of games... I don't even have 200 games yet, that's why I'm not at 50%... Eventually if I ever start playing on this account again it will go down to 50. And when it happens I won't be crying that it's because it's "pairing me with noobs", it will be because I can't outplay my opponents so easily.
And no, I'm not mad, I just see these kinds of threads every day on every forum, from people who seem to think they know so much about statistics and how they can improve the MM so easily, while they don't even know what they're talking about in first place... And all that because they can't face how bad they are.
It's funny at the amount of people who time played(games played) automatically = skill.
Far from it, my friends...
9v1: Levels don't mean anything. It does not reflect your skill or the amount of games you play.
The funniest part is that not only is skill huge but this is Dota "2" and it's in beta. This means there are tons of new players coming in with 0 experience at level 0 and also "new" players who have been playing DotA, HoN or even LoL for ages and have a good understanding of the game.
So for what is this lvl? But what about winratio? If you have 42% winratio in 500 games, this means that you are (counted on big numbers) a handicap for your team. Since dota 2 records both, i guessed, that MM puts both into account, just like dotaleague.
I just know how the MM on Dotalicious and Dotaleague worked. Dotaleague took total points (number of games played) and winratio, and tried to even out teams. Dotalicious took exp-points (like an eloranking).
If you are so smart, tell me how the matchmaking works. And if there are players like puppey or the other 60%+ Guys (highest winratio is 80%), there must be on the otherside the possibility of incredibly bad guys, that the MM could not handle. If i stack with a friend of mine, who has never played dota, and we play 100 Games, the matchmaking will still be broken. He won't be any better 100 games later (he's kinda lazy and refuses to use anything beside his mouse). So i am a average player (maybe slightly above i was always on the edge of Sl 1/2 at dotalicious), he is total bullcrap. You rly think, that matchmaking will pair us with another total bullcrap/average team? Maybe it will try to compensate it with finding two slightly below average players. Problem in dota (and in all teamsituations) is, that a chain will only be as secure as its weakest link.
Don't get why you have so big problems with simple logic.
imo, stacking is broken. if you queue with a total noob(in terms of levels, not by skill) in your stack, you'll drag him to where you are in MM.
there had been cases where a teammate told me that his friend is new to the game. true enough his friend's level is low, but his is close to mine.
and i was right, if you see that ck match you mentioned, timbersaw was 33 and ck was lvl 8.
you can see from their friends tab that they queued together.
Yeah i play BS and Ursa often, guess why? Cause you simply can not tread publics like "real" dota. Its just 9v1, so pick a pubstomper, stomp, profit. Btw Bs overall stats are at 48% so he is not the easiest guy to stomp with. Actually picking drow or undying is way more broke.
0-10...
8-15...
0-3...
0-6...
I'm sorry, are you talking about how you ruin the games of others or how others ruin the game for you? Because I think it's the former, not the latter.
K matchmaking is fine. I'm the failbob. Got it. The chinese guy with 20 games (half of them with bounty hunter) must be right.
But wait, matchmaking can't be that good, since my arguments are still there. As i said, everyone may get bad games, and today i lost many games. I even lost 11 in a row once (so did i win 11 in a row once).
But there are very bad players and very good players out there that matchmaking does not balance well, if you like it or not. And stacking makes this possible, since you can stack with a complete moron and other have to deal with it.
Ps. Most of the games you cited i started feeding on purpose after game was allready lost thx to feed by mates. So i started feeding on purpose, selling my stuff and invest it in alot of chickens to feed even harder.
"But there are very bad players and very good players out there that matchmaking does not balance well, if you like it or not."
Nobody ever denied this, but I've already said this before, IT'S NOT A MM ISSUE, there simply aren't other players to play against these people whenever they join a queue. The point is you don't get to play with them unless you're close to their level. You're crying about your team having really bad players? Then get better, the main reason it happens is because YOU are also bad.
"And stacking makes this possible, since you can stack with a complete moron and other have to deal with it."
It's not stacking that makes this possible. If the game was exclusively solo, the rating distribution would still follow a bell curve... The problem stacks bring to the table is that you'll have someone better then you and someone worse then you on your team, but yes, MM does consider this and makes the same thing happen on the other team unless it's not possible because, again, THERE AREN'T ENOUGH PLAYERS that meet the requirements.
But now that you say you're intentionally feeding, I realize you were an even bigger moron then I initially considered, which explains how hard it is for you to get this.
Ofc i start feeding on purpose, why not? If the game is lost, and i want to make it end fast. Since dota 2 has no ff function. I would prefer to leave or forfeit the game. But leaving will cause low priority matchmaking, so i prefer fastening the outcome, that my feedmates determined. And why you always talk bullshit like: "YOU ARE BAD." You haven't played 1 game with me to decide. Btw: According to your theory: "Matchmaking works well, and you get to paired in even teams," i must be a realy good player, since i get lvl 1-2 30% winratio guys on my team. I do not complain the games with some faildude. Everybody can have bad games, we all have. What makes me angry are games like this:
https://dotabuff.com/matches/79855356
Enemy Team:
DARTHOLDA Level 24
Record 299 - 287
51.02%
kALi_ Level 23
Record 314 - 298
51.31%
Miky
Level 20
Record 210 - 196
51.72%
Msf´|Exi
Level 23
Record, 324 - 292
52.60%
@lFoO
Level 29
Record 358 - 329
52.11%
They were a 5 STACK! With a Winratio between 52%-69% as a stack!
My Team:
Near
Level 34
Record 300 - 292
50.68%
GreencH.Дориан Грей
Level 48
Record 521 - 485
51.79%
kREWILIWE
Level 1
Record 5 - 12
Win Rate 29.41%
L33SA
Level 39
Record 505 – 533
48.65%
9v1
Level 30
Record 293 - 287
50.52%
We had a 3 stack on our team. On of them with 48% winratio, one with 30% winratio lvl 1, one of them with normal 52%. As a stack they had a winratio between 47% and 30%.
And now go on, and tell me the bullshit about: “Teams are even.” “You get paired with players that are the same lvl as you are, same on enemy team.”
The enemy team had:
- Higher average Winratio
- They were a 5 Stack, against a 3 Stack and 2 solodudes
- Higher average winratio as a stack
- We had a noob. Not a bad player. Just a player, new to the game. He farmed with tombstone all game long. Activated glyph in wrong situations etc.
On all available informations the other team was just highly favoured. They got paired with 5, better overall, better individual stats. This brings me nearly to the point, that I will stop playing alone, since I can better toss a coin to make the outcome clear:
Matchmaking should simply block too uneven combos. Under a certain amount of games and a certain winratio you should not be able to play against certain players. Just like dotalicious. If you do not reach SL 2, you are not allowed to play Sl 2, no chance for cutting this of with stacking.
Aaand: The problem is stacking. Its just the last few weeks this happens, since so many new players join dota 2. They stack with mates that allready played and get to play higher lvl games, they can't compete in.
Simple solution:
"You are not allowed to join games with Player XY, since his Skillvl is too low."
Problem solved. So noobmates have to play alone without their friends. They still could play against bots or in a lobby.
Or
Simply wait as long as you get nearly even teams. This game for example was uneven on every aspect.
I' recommend you to play more often these days. At lvl 8 the world is still fluffy and funky, since you get to play against noobs mostly. I rly think about creating a new account for myself, since im sick of this shit.
I'm getting kind of tired of repeating myself here, but please, for once, understand this: WINRATE AND LEVELS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING, especially alone.
#1 - Levels are there to give you items and as a reason for people to grind and pay for battle points, period. They aren't a measure of skill, and they aren't even considered in MM... They might give you a VERY general idea of how many games someone has played, but it doesn't really work because of how battle bonuses work and the fact that it doesn't count custom lobbys for anything.
#2 - Winrate is not skill related. You could use is a pretty poor reference to how you fare relative to the teams you've been facing recently, but that's all. My winrate is higher then Dendi on most accounts, and I'm not half as good as he is. He just plays against people that are a lot better then the people I do.
On the game you're pointing out there... First of all your opponents DO NOT have much better individual stats. Your team has 2 players with better stats, 2x more games played then they do, and they did play A LOT better. You might wanna lie to yourself that you only did bad in comparison because you were "trolling", but they get 3x your GPM and XPM... In fact, even though they had a fucking retard intentionally feeding on their team, the score wasn't that far off... Take you out of that game, since you weren't helping anyway and it was essentially a 4v5, and they would actually be ahead. YOU FUCKED UP THAT GAME as much as the "noob guy" did, or even harder. Face it.
And I'm not saying anything because "life is fluffy on level 8"... Not only because levels don't matter, but I've been in the beta since long before the levels system even worked, I play a lot more custom lobbys then MM, and my games are shared over a bunch of accounts, like this more recent one https://dotabuff.com/players/93105072, and the "main" one probably has more games then all others combined, so yeah, I did see MM do it's job more then enough times.
@9v1
You are a moron, just that. Game is never lost. I won a 3x5 game with Ogre/BH/PA because the other 2 dc on start of game.
"Game is lost? maybe, but let's try."
That's what we did and after 44 mins running back and forth because of lack of people for defend/attack, we won.
Then if you start feeding because you THINK game is lost - mostly because someone is bad and you are worse due to the fact you can't outplay anyone, you are mostly carried by others -, then MM is right in putting you with other noobs, because that's your skill level. :)
Go check replay and judge it again. Only by looking at gpm and xpm it won't work. I had no gold, since i let the void get all the lasthits. With no gold=no survivabilty and as a rhasta shakkling you are always the first target to die in a teamfight. Even with a rhasta/krob combo we could not push, since we were never enough. The UD simply did not team up, while the other team defended with 5 always (try to take a tower against tidehunter/gyro). btw the sniper had total freefarm and even the enemy team felt sorry for me (they wrote it).
I think i will just make it like you and spread my games on many accounts. So i can play against noobs with noobs on team. Thats fine. But playing against a decent 5 stacks with noobs on team is not.
Oh i forget the best part about the game. The 3 were russians and UD could not speak one english word. He did not speak 1 word the whole game.
I hope someone of valve reads here. I have my own solution.
a)Option 1: Only pick riki/slark/bh/ursa/bs/qop to stomp
b)Option 2: Create many accounts and play on them.
Okay I gave up trying to read all these long posts. I'm not interested in judging anybody or MM itself here. Just have a few facts about how MM works I'd like to share with you guys. As you may know the games are partitioned into several levels: normal, high, very high. And each player has a hidden score which changes after every game. I am not sure about the exact numbers but here is how it changes: you win/lose a normal game, score +1/-1; high -> score +2/-2; very high -> score +3/-3. Also there is another criterion called KDA(Kill-Death-Assit) ratio or something. These two things combined is what MM is based on. I personally do not think MM can match 10 ppl with the same level. It merely ensures the two team's overall scores/KDA are about the same. So it is highly possible that a decent player ends up with a few feeders in a game, especially when the search progress bar becomes quite long if you know what I'm talking about. I'm gonna stop typing now cuz I'm really tired.
You may end up playing with noobs because ppl "GRADUATE" to a higher level ., ex : it happened to me , i guess i was playing on high skill level a while a go , and after a winning streak i got into a very high lvl game , with 9 chinese ppl, and because of the difference of gameplay i sucked hrd at the begining something like 0 6 ,Then we cameback , but welost anyway. And something i noticed is that when u start playingwith a friend that is a begginer you gradually go down in MM and u end up playing wiith noobs even when u are plying on yourown
Find some mates -> premade in party
Problem solved, you still get feeders though, but in 2 ppl you can handle it and help that feeder to get up.
MM is alot about your KDA just as Exam Hater pointed out. Your hidden skill level can even go up if you loose, you just have to perform enough (eg not dying too much, still getting kills and assists etc).
And like justin weaver said, graduating like he called it, is also a fact to consider. Had some games myself where i was playing in high bracket, went up to very high without noticing and was like "holy fuck, how am i loosing so hard" :S
Well after a few games you'll get the hang of it, and now playing in very high often means not having that noob player with you ;) Because going from normal to very high in only a few games seldom happens.
I would really be interested in what bracket you're playing in 9v1!
I would be too, but since i cannot figure it out... I went to 57% winratio arround lvl 22-25. Then i dropped hard down to 50-52%.
Another good example why publics are just great:
https://dotabuff.com/matches/80140929
Matchmaking was ok this game, no one failed in terms of controling his hero.
We had a Bane, Mira, DS, Axe and Antimage. Proper laning:
Think about it 10 seconds...
Antimage Top, Bane as Babysitter Top, Axe Jungle, Mira Mid, Darkseer Suicidelane
This would be an awesome laning. Bane should play primary support, Axe/DS Secondary. Antimage Hardcarry, Mira Semicarry. Sounds realy not like the worst setup.
How it went:
Mira doesnt go mid, since she doesnt "want to". Bane went mid, bought no chick. DS and Mira went both Bot, Antimage went top. So i had to buy a chick with axe. I told this politly and nice to my team, but no one listend. So i went top, and tried to babysit the antimage, just realising i was pushing lane (counterhelix) and did not help him at all. Bane still refused to buy wards, or up chick, so i did both.
As an AXE i was warding all game long, since Bane was only complaining about "why we have not enough wards", instead of doing his job and ward himself.
Actually we did pretty well early to midgame, but we needed to push. Since our Antimage had only poor farm, and they had 2 lategamers with jugger and lancer. Antimage refused to join us, since he wanted to catch up the farm (against lancer with radiance).
End of story: We lost, anti mage flamed me hard for beeing a noob.
Go ingame to the "watch" tab, press filter -> enter your name and select the skill bracket you wanna search for. There you can check in which bracket your last games were!
Its arround high and very high, mostly high. Last game was high. Last game very high was at december 15. Seems like i dropped from very high to high again. Interesting fact: Our chinese guy in this thread (the one with he chinese symbols) has never played on very high, but ofc he judges me as a noob. I'm on the edge of high/very high.
Thx for the info.
You're missing my point there... I didn't create a bunch of accounts to keep playing at low level... I HATE playing low level games. I just did what I did to prove that MM works and is extremely consistent.
While I was learning to play the game, I had 2 friends with huge dota 1 experience "coaching" me... A few weeks in, we joined MM and faced some sort of well known players, we lost ofc, and one of my friends suddenly started raging hard that it was all my fault, etc. The other guy stood up and said that in his opinion I was actually getting better then he was, as in fact I had almost 70% WR and most of my games were high (back then games were classified as Low / Normal / High), while he was struggling to keep 50% and all of his recent games were rated as Low.
His reasoning is that I got lucky to join the beta before all the noobs got in and MM was flooded, and that it would never happen if I had started a fresh account... I was then given 2 invites (the one I'm posting with right now was one of those) to start all over, and showed him that after about 100 games, again, all my recent games were rated the same, I was playing against the same people, and my WR had gone just like on the first account.
Of course he didn't accept it, because it would never be possible on his account, as he already had a bunch of games, got negative and MM would always pair him with retards no matter what... So he gave me his account to play in, and that's the one I linked on my last post... And then he blocked me from steam and skype :)
For me, this is more then enough proof that MM will get people to their level of game in no time, and they only get stuck with "noobs" if they are also one of them.
And also, MM is a continuum scale... Games aren't any different when you go from N to H or H to VH, you're playing against pretty much the same group.
You get me wrong. I'm not "stuck" with noobs. But it makes me angry when i get to play with them. Thats all. I'm not a progamer or some sort of that. I have dota 1 exp and think I'm a slightly above average player.
Recent games i got noobs on my team quite often. And thats how stacking makes balancing go down. If 2 high guys stack with a normal guy they will still play in high games. Even the normal guy (aka noob) does not match in here. And i had those type of games quite often last days. In most games matchmaking is working, but this flaw is pretty annoying. And it will get more annoying with more new players.
it's got something to do with team matchmaking still not implemented.
just a speculation, no proof or whatsoever, it might be that on stacks, they queue in whoever click the "find games." since there is no team mm yet, could be that mm queues stacks as 1 person. and usually in stacks, the person with the highest level is the leader and queues.
have not tried it though coz i play solo, i don't have any friends irl who play dota 2. :C
I kinda feel for you 9v1 dude. I always stack with my friends who are new to dota2 but have experience with dota1 or hon we always get queued with guys on my level who are way better than them. It's so hard to win because of this. Maybe we should wait for the team matchmake system to be implemented. Also when going solo queue I usually get grouped with low level players who generally likes playing carry only and don't understand what teamwork means. So I know where the TS is coming from.
LOL, thinking win % & # of games = skill.
Win % usually comes from teamwork and leadership. If you see someone doing something stupid, kindly point it out to them. Keep team morale high. Low-skill players can still be great teammates. A lot of them will listen to what you say because they don't know what to do. If you see them getting ganked, ping the minimap and tell them over voice.
I'd take a noob over a rager any day.
I guess I'd suggest friending more people on steam and playing games with people you know are closer to your skill level. There's really no point in bitching on a non-valve forum about mechanics that no one really seems to fully understand.
I do have an issue with your intentional feeding, though. And am curious as to whether you were in the low-priority pool when the MM took place for the game/s you're bitching about.
Look at the big picture man: the only goal of the MM system is to keep you stable at a win ratio of 0.5, and right now you are at 50.77% with 587 matches played. Seems fair enough to me, since its goal is not to give you extreme fun while doing it. Being fun is the objective of the game experience as a whole, not only the MM. If losing makes you angry then leave Dota 2 and play another game where losing half of your mathes is not a certainty. Intentional feeding is also punishable, as it's even included in the report system. It's f* wrong and we all know it, so please don't ask "why not"... bad teammates is just a cheap excuse.
Also, the game -and its MM system- are still in beta, and surely it can improve much more. And you can complain about being inside the error bars of the statistics, but the MM seems to work pretty well for you and for the great majority of the player base, and hopefully it will get even better.
(sorry for my english btw)
New or low skilled players won´t learn much if they will be playing only with same skilled players. The problem is however when very low skilled players who play dota for few weeks get in same team with ones who play it for years and even competitively. This is only problem with current matchmaking. I don´t have problem playing with less experienced players but I do not like when I get complete newbie who feeds but he still needs to learn somehow. Still VALVe should improbe matchmaking system to determine who will match with who.
i suggest turn it off then start again if mm to long. (600 games guy play not play with 100 games guy)
I agree with OP, look at that game. you can't honestly look at that and go "that game has a 50/50 chance of either team winning". He was doomed to lose that shit before the game even started. Anyone would bet on the enemy team to win that, ANYONE.
Inicia sesión para poder publicar comentarios.
https://dotabuff.com/matches/78466373
Can you pls tell me, why i get a lvl 2 guy with 35% Winratio in my team?
https://dotabuff.com/players/52857874
This ist just a fucking joke. Since this Game has no ff function, i had to play with him for 44 min. He repicked Jakiro into Mortred and managed to feed on from min 3 till the end. He could not check minimap once.
For what is the lvl and the winratio, if i get players like him in my team? Even Dendi could not win with this guy. He was just like dying every 2 Minutes.
Nearly the same here:
https://dotabuff.com/matches/78498664
The Chaosknight has under 100 games and is lvl 8 with low stats. He comes in with his mate and just ruins game from min 1 on. We managed to lose a 4v5, because this CK was just so incredible low. He got only a Sange by min 38.
This matchmaking does realy not work well.