So I just had a conversation someone who knows the guy who was involved in developing the MM used by Dota, and apparently this person believes that a skilled player paired with a bad player is OK. That's just fucked, and completely untrue. What the fuck can you do when this "bad player" goes mid? Picks a carry? You don't know the guy, for all you know he could be good. But then he feeds, or gets absolutely shat on, and the game is already gone.
And stop talking about pub stomps and shit, that's not what anyone is on about here. Its not even about winning or losing. Its about having somewhat even games, not games that become completely one sided because its a 4v6 or 3v7. And yes this is possible, not to the point where the game is 50% either way as its not really possible to properly allocate a rating for a player, but close enough so that the game isn't decided by one retard who just fucks the game by himself.
Well its not that its ok, its more that its impossible to do it any other way and achieve the goal of fair games while still allowing people to que in groups of 1,2,3,4,5.
If you could only solo que or only 5 que it is possible to match similar skill players. But if people get to choose its not possible because many people choose to play with friends nowhere near their MMR. So to match the wide variation in skill on one team you have to put the same disparity on the other team.
I really like how everyone blames MM for shitty team, but no-one ever says anything about getting a good team, even though every time someone gets a "shit team" other team should get not so bad players. I don't see a problem with solo MM, yes you do get bad players, but you also get good ones. I rarely stack with more than 2 people, if stack at all, and my winrate is stable around 53-54%. Also, OP, notice how my top heroes have at least 60% winrate on all of them. That's because I don't play a hero if I know I can't perform well with him.
@The Terrible
Nah, you are not looking at it from the OP's point of view. It is obvious you are a noob - you have 1.71 KDA with Omni. Who has that? And these 63% are because you had good players to carry you to victory, like obviously! Sarcasm*
cheap fix - valve implements solo queuing or five-stack queuing only. MM problem (mostly) solved. Cue all the rage threads about "when these vavle shitters gonna implement two-four man stack".
seriously, as much as you guys like to harp on those fucking noobs, sometimes (many times) people can have abit of bad luck, and have it snowball from there. I play TA with a >75% win rate over 90+ games, and when I lose sometimes I can go 1-9 in the first ten minutes. In pubs it's all too easy to lose the advantage to one mistake, and when you as a teammate don't help with ganks and put down their advantage, said lane is only going to feed more.
Accept that for all the good games you have, there's gotta be a few bad ones. Be glad it isn't a broken either-you-shat-on-others-or-get-shat-on, there's still a fair share of good matchmaking around. Its just that people are selectively bias and only harp on the bad games. Nobody ever creates a topic to talk about all the good games they had recently.
@MIY337
Oh come on, there is one guy who has somehow good (not even superb) wl ratio, not to mention the fact that wl ration means almost nothing in this mm unless its not lower than 50%, but do you really think that he alone proves that mm system works?
Btw, another balanced game - I played huskar with my friend on cm and he roamed hell of enemies' mid and still our ta sucked ass with 2-9 score. As well as russian meepo. Again Im somehow supposed to win 3v7.
You shouldn't have to stack as 5 to have somewhat even games. MM is supposed to make games that are somewhat even, if its not doing that, then its a crap system.
At the moment it seems to go absolutely retarded every now and then, putting players in games they shouldn't even be close to. And that is a problem.
Again this isn't about winning or losing, its about getting somewhat even, contested games as often as possible.
This is what i have experienced so far. After playing and winning( queing up with 3 other people) multiple times straight, the game afterwards i would get some extreme noob on my team which isn't even close to me/my friends tier. I personally don't think that the matchmaking is broken, however at times it still pisses me off when the random calls mid, we let him and he feeds then blames the team...
@lie to me agen fagt
I never said MM works as a competitive MM. It doesn't. I even explained how it makes it possible to match a 90% with a 10% SL. It is a casual MM - get it ffs.
Okay, lets talk about the Huskar game:
- It was a 40 min game with score 30-26.
- There are only 3 people with less than 100 cs for these 40 mins and only one of them on your squad the support.
- You have two players with minus KDA, but the enemy team has a bounty hunter who is also lvl 13 with only 5 assists (not so much track gold).
- 4 of the players on your team have blink daggers, which is most of the time a sign of a good game.
In other words - you have no right to blame the MM here. There is no way for the MM to know a teammate will pick meepo and will get raped - shit happens. You have too high expectations to a system, that doesn't even have visible rankings.
Zenoth has a good point. One player who was supposed to be strong relative to the rest having a bad game can turn it into a walkover. Although on my best heroes I really never have a bad KDA score. I have games where I totally domminate (ie 10 KDA) and games where I merely do ok (ie 3 KDA). But if I was supposed to be the strongest player on my team and have a mediocre performance that's usually a loss.
@You_Got_Fukt
I think good matches are the rule not the exception. Occasionally teams seem really unfair, but usually its like Zenoth said, things just snowballed from a bad start. I've seen best of 3 matches of powerful, closely matched pro teams, say Empire vs Navi, where Empire won the first game by a huge margin, and Navi game back and absolutely stomped them in the second game. Both cases they just won the first few engagements and snowballed.
The same thing can and often does happen in pub games. But you don't get to play several games with the same teams so you only see the bad game. You need to evaluate based on your own performance. Matchmaking does not know you. It is not set up against you personally. Sometimes your team will have an edge because of hero picks, sometimes not. Player skill will be pretty well balanced every time. If you can't pull the weight of your MMR then you will lose and drop down to easier games. If you are underated you will win and play harder games until you lose again.
Failure is a part of life. Learn from it instead of whining. If you want to never face difficulty then play dota 1, get a maphack, stack the teams, and put a thrower friend on the other team. Then you will be certain to win...but are such wins of any value? Winning is valuable when losing is possible. Winning is most valuable when losing was likely. Enjoy the challenge of your nub team.
Wins and losses are reciprocal. You can't have one without the other. They are the same game, just a different perspective.
Truly unfair matchmaking or a failure of the system would be if large numbers of people were getting 80% or 90% win. But that is not happening. Even pro players struggle to get much past 65% win. And almost everyone is between 45% and 55%. The system is working very well for its purpose, which is to produce fair games on average.
When everybody wins/losses 9, 10, or 11 games in every 20 trys...I don't see how you could ask for more.
Again, if the issue is not playing with bad players, then don't que with less than 5. Its a team game. If you want to really play it at a high level you have to get 5 players. The option to choose your team is fully available.
@lie to me agen fagt
My point about not picking a hero if you are not sure you can perform well still stands. I don't have as many games as you, but when your 2 out of 3 heroes have <50% winrate, that just means you are not that good with them. And the more games you play, the more are the chances it wasnt team fault, but you under-achieving. I for example can't play shit bounty hunter- my score is 0 6 I believe. I just don't pick him, its that simple. And if I want good chance to win, ill pick one of my top 10 heroes, which almost all have =>60% chance to win.
Relentless, you see, almost all wins and losses are artificially made. I have an even game 1 out of 10 if Im lucky, its a big difference if you have 50% winrate with a balanced mm and when its 50% becasue it keeps you at this rate. :))))))))))))))))))))))
I don't find that MM tries to keep you at 50%. For me, it tries to keep me at 53-55%, as I go rapidly between 2 values. I honestly think if you play the roles/heroes you are good with, even with "horrible luck" you can reach good winrate. For you, another problem is you played so many games it would be extremely hard to change your winrate at this point.
The Terrible, I wanna tell you a story. I created another acc and played a few games. I carried like 2 of 3 won games alone, but 4th game I got complete imbecils against a team with good teamplay and average skill. Needless to say that we lost. This only works one way - if you win, you will lose no matter what, not because its about percentage, but because mm will force you to lose.
Have you considered not playing carries? I don't play carries in 90% of my games because I know my team going to pick 1-2-3-4 of them.
Also, thats the whole point of MM- to create fair matches. That means that eventually you are going to loose. Do you want a system where you win 100%? Only way to have a chance of this is to play as 5 stack, obviously public MM not going to be able to balance games perfectly, and going to give you players of a lower caliber than you are when you are on a winning streak.
What did you expect from the MM? Do you understand why it can't gaurentee you every game a win or every game without players far weaker than you? Yes, its true winning a string of games will make you more and more likely to lose. Its the same with losing, more games lost in a row the teams will stack more and more in your favor. That is what is supposed to happen. The only way you can get very far from 50% is to play with a full team or be one of the best players in the world so that comparable opponents just don't exist in the que at time of you search.
Yeah, except for shitty visage and sniper picker in ap.
The second game our pudge was feeding on purpose.
Thats what Im talking about - you will always get some forced losses if you begin to win more than several times in a row, not fucking random losses, but forced and thats the problem.
get some trustworthy stack and stfu, everyone might have a bad day, or trying a new hero, or u got a bad day, so u call everyone as feeders and such bla, i am just saying maybe, not 100% sure of wut im saying
but the easiest way to solve it is to get a stack, have some skype or teamspeak, anything, GET FRIENDS !!
But actually I got my proof that mm is broken, its enough to read You_got_Fukt's posts.
So all who protected this shitty system got proved they are incorrect, as sending good player+bad player in one team is something a smart man would never do.
I also have this issue, but now it's getting better. It's true that mm currently is not working as it should be, but there are ways to make it "better". I am also rated high by DBR when it was first implemented (1957DBR), so mostly i went to the top mm brackets(platinum), but when sometimes I get low and entered a bracket with some people who lacks experience in DotA, I usually just keeps ordering them around (not using voice chat of course), because a game is mostly lost because of a lack of coordination. So, I mostly, always be the noisy bitch in my team telling people to put wards here and there, push here and there, gank shits and stuff, and IMO it's okay to be a bit annoying, as long as you can carry your team to victory. FYI I never liked sup's so I always farm shit and try to solo carry the team. Try to be a noisy bitch like me and maybe u will win more.
It's something a smart man would never do. But have you imagined when the system cannot find people of relatively similar skill level within a short period, and expands its search criteria? Imagine if you have a four stack, and the system finally finds a five stack to oppose you, but the average skill level is lower. How else would the system try to offset the skill difference? Try to understand the limitations the system has to work around with.
^Again, what you are saying are elements of any reasonable system, something I would agree with.
As I said before, pairing a high player with a lower player is OK, as long as that lower player isn't significantly out of their depth. Which is the problem I am encountering every now and then with a couple allies who are legitimately worse than bots.
Now do you believe that putting someone who is 0W-5L against a 5 stack of players who all have 500-1600 games is ok?
^ You suck newb. Be happy that someone carries you, though you stay at the same low level.
Played with this sucker right now - http://dotabuff.com/players/94905680, how the hell can this shit have almost 52% winratre when he plays like a total imbecil?
Zenoth I have been trying to explain to them the impossibility of MM doing what they want for some time now but they just don't want to listen or think about it reasonably. I think they simply want to vent because they are frustrated that they can't find enough higher skilled friends to play with most of the time and get aggravated trying to carry far weaker players. They really don't want to understand or try the real solution (get more friends and que with 5). They just want to be mad.
The games really are fair, with a tiny handful of exceptions. Everyone knows it. If it were not true people would not be so close to 50%. Even the vast majority of people who stack with friends every game still only get 60/40 win loss or less. MM is working quite well.
Now occasionally (like the last 2 days) lots of new invites to beta go out and that does mess up MM for a little while. People choose experienced ratings because they played dota 1 for years, but they actually suck for the first few weeks so their MMR has to drop down and then come back up when they learn the new mechanics and hotkeys. If there are a lot of new invites game quality does drop for a few days until the new players get rated more accurately.
'The games really are fair, with a tiny handful of exceptions. Everyone knows it. If it were not true people would not be so close to 50%. Even the vast majority of people who stack with friends every game still only get 60/40 win loss or less. MM is working quite well.' I cant even imagine what happens inside your head. Ive told like 100 times that almost 80% of my losses are forced by matchmaking, you still keep mimimiing that its ok. Get some real sense, please.
Your definition of "good matchmaking" is then that you would not have 80% of your loses?
So that means you would win 90% of games and lose only 10%? Are you really that delusional or that narcissistic?
I bet you didn't even win 90% back when you could stack every game heavily in your favor in dota 1. You lose games when you can't carry your MMR. Just like everyone else. You don't deserve to win 90% and have bad players all on the other team...thats just absurd.
Why 90%? Maybe 60%. But that actually explains why I almost never lose my lane and had higher than 1900 dbr. And still, you cannot argue on the point my losses actually are forced, so your previous post was actually useless.
No losses are not "forced" they are simply more and more difficult and at some point you don't get better and better.
As I have explained many times already now - Matchmaking cannot balance the teams by giving you all good players because people que with very uneven skill on their teams. Since a group of 3 or 4 has one much weaker player, you have to get a weak player on your side to balance. The only way to avoid it is to que as 5. Either learn and change your behavior or don't learn and stupidly keep trying the same failed plan and whining that it does not work. I have explained how to not get bad players on your team so clearly...and I should not even have too because is so obvious how to do it.
If you que with 5 this is what will happen. You will face harder and harder opponents instead of getting weaker and weaker allies as your MMR increases. If you have a very very good team of 5 you might win 12+ games in a row before one can be found strong enough to beat you.
^When you think every game is lost because of your team, time to think about maybe it was you, not team.
Yo, Дартаньян, friend me, lets play together.
steam name: p0tramp_kun
Lets try the contrapositive argument. I don't really expect you to see it, but so what I enjoy making it anyway.
Forced Wins man! Its so unfair. I'm new to dota and I am 15th percentile Bronze but no matter how much I fail I keep winning 47%. Every time I lose several games in a row I get these pros on my team who just carry me so hard I can't lose. Matchmaking fails why can't I get pubstomped into the ground game after game like I used to in dota 1.
It can't be that I didn't feed as hard as the nub on the other team...no no its these pros on my team they just pwn so hard I win no matter what I do. The more I lose the more certain my next game will be a win. I am Forced to win. Like 80% of my wins are undeserved. Man I hate this MM system.
"Matchmaking cannot balance the teams by giving you all good players" - and I said that this is fine, as long as the player isn't that far below the rest of the people in the game. But maybe, just maybe, if read my post, you would see that someone who was 0W-5L somehow managed to get into a game against a 5 stack of players ranging from 500-1600 games? Is that considered ok in your books? Respond to this, because you constantly avoid it, and keep talking about how you think the MM system works, when it clearly is doing other things that are far from normal.
"Since a group of 3 or 4 has one much weaker player, you have to get a weak player on your side to balance"
Which of the players in the game I linked were so bad that they should be facing someone who is 0W-5L?
"You will face harder and harder opponents" - is that why this 5 stack faced someone who was 0W-5L? Does that classify as tough opponents? Heck even me at the time being 3W-4L shouldn't have been in that game. So 5 players queuing with 500-1600 games face 2 people with under 10 games that are 3W-4L and 0W-5L is harder opponents?
"No losses are not "forced" they are simply more and more difficult and at some point you don't get better and better." - I disagree with this completely. The games you can get thrown into don't just range from 45-55% or something, they can go completely down one side, because one or two players are playing way out of their bracket, and they don't even have the stats to suggest that they should even be in the game in the first place.
I already answered the first point, twice in general, but I could be more specific.
First the 0-5 guy chose "experienced" and starts in High bracket, loses the first few games and begins his drop to where he belongs. Since you do actually win the game and it looks close...maybe it WAS fair?
The opposing team is a stack of bad friends who, yes have played a lot...but still are low skill players. 4 of the 5 have more losses than wins, and this guy
http://dotabuff.com/players/66784301 is very very bad, he plays almost all lich and has terrible stats even on a super easy hero he plays all the time. His win% without lich would be nearly 45%. He is probably in the bottom 10% of all dota players. Happy now? The other team did have b a terrible player also. I have no doubt his MMR matches your 0-5 nubs MMR.
Yes, you were the tough opponent, but they had their Bronze scum friend which was balanced by your 0-5 nub. If you don't want bad players in your game then you have to exclude them from YOUR team silly. You can't just hope the other team doesnt let a nub friend play with them. That's the whole point. YOU DID NOT QUE AS 5.
You don't carefully analyze the stats. You can't see the MMR. You don't judge whether the game was fair correctly. Any one game can be lopsided just because one player is drunk or having a bad game. You can't cherry pick a game and say "look matchmaking is broken". But even though you tried!!! This game was quite obviously fair!
Hell man, you even won the game, and your 0-5 nub ended up 7-5-4 KDA oh no! how horrible! what a huge feed! Was he the worst player by far on your team? Obviously yes. Did it make the game unplayable? Obviously no. It was a fair match.
Again, there are no restrictions at all on who is in a game. There is no such thing as a "Gold Bracket" and never was. Gold was the score dotabuff assigned to You personally at the time of the game. It is not a score for game or the players in the game...just you.
Very bad feeders play in Very High games. Real Pro players play in Normal games. This happens all the time because people do not que as 5. It is IMPOSSIBLE to control the skill range for matchmaking if you don't do it yourself by choosing your team. Its not Valves fault, there is no algorithm or program that can be made to fix it...it is the choice of the players to play with their friends. If you choose to not do this...then you will be balanced by getting worse and worse allies as you raise your MMR. That is the only way it can work...unless you want to sit in que for an hour or 2 or even 3 hours waiting for the game like ThroneIT Tier 3 always did.
Relentless, ofc picking void doesnt cause team to suck, its retarded mm who causes team to suck.
So I just had a conversation someone who knows the guy who was involved in developing the MM used by Dota, and apparently this person believes that a skilled player paired with a bad player is OK. That's just fucked, and completely untrue. What the fuck can you do when this "bad player" goes mid? Picks a carry? You don't know the guy, for all you know he could be good. But then he feeds, or gets absolutely shat on, and the game is already gone.
And stop talking about pub stomps and shit, that's not what anyone is on about here. Its not even about winning or losing. Its about having somewhat even games, not games that become completely one sided because its a 4v6 or 3v7. And yes this is possible, not to the point where the game is 50% either way as its not really possible to properly allocate a rating for a player, but close enough so that the game isn't decided by one retard who just fucks the game by himself.
play as team if solo queue anoyes you ..
Well its not that its ok, its more that its impossible to do it any other way and achieve the goal of fair games while still allowing people to que in groups of 1,2,3,4,5.
If you could only solo que or only 5 que it is possible to match similar skill players. But if people get to choose its not possible because many people choose to play with friends nowhere near their MMR. So to match the wide variation in skill on one team you have to put the same disparity on the other team.
I really like how everyone blames MM for shitty team, but no-one ever says anything about getting a good team, even though every time someone gets a "shit team" other team should get not so bad players. I don't see a problem with solo MM, yes you do get bad players, but you also get good ones. I rarely stack with more than 2 people, if stack at all, and my winrate is stable around 53-54%. Also, OP, notice how my top heroes have at least 60% winrate on all of them. That's because I don't play a hero if I know I can't perform well with him.
@The Terrible
Nah, you are not looking at it from the OP's point of view. It is obvious you are a noob - you have 1.71 KDA with Omni. Who has that? And these 63% are because you had good players to carry you to victory, like obviously! Sarcasm*
cheap fix - valve implements solo queuing or five-stack queuing only. MM problem (mostly) solved. Cue all the rage threads about "when these vavle shitters gonna implement two-four man stack".
seriously, as much as you guys like to harp on those fucking noobs, sometimes (many times) people can have abit of bad luck, and have it snowball from there. I play TA with a >75% win rate over 90+ games, and when I lose sometimes I can go 1-9 in the first ten minutes. In pubs it's all too easy to lose the advantage to one mistake, and when you as a teammate don't help with ganks and put down their advantage, said lane is only going to feed more.
Accept that for all the good games you have, there's gotta be a few bad ones. Be glad it isn't a broken either-you-shat-on-others-or-get-shat-on, there's still a fair share of good matchmaking around. Its just that people are selectively bias and only harp on the bad games. Nobody ever creates a topic to talk about all the good games they had recently.
@MIY337
Oh come on, there is one guy who has somehow good (not even superb) wl ratio, not to mention the fact that wl ration means almost nothing in this mm unless its not lower than 50%, but do you really think that he alone proves that mm system works?
Btw, another balanced game - I played huskar with my friend on cm and he roamed hell of enemies' mid and still our ta sucked ass with 2-9 score. As well as russian meepo. Again Im somehow supposed to win 3v7.
You shouldn't have to stack as 5 to have somewhat even games. MM is supposed to make games that are somewhat even, if its not doing that, then its a crap system.
At the moment it seems to go absolutely retarded every now and then, putting players in games they shouldn't even be close to. And that is a problem.
Again this isn't about winning or losing, its about getting somewhat even, contested games as often as possible.
This is what i have experienced so far. After playing and winning( queing up with 3 other people) multiple times straight, the game afterwards i would get some extreme noob on my team which isn't even close to me/my friends tier. I personally don't think that the matchmaking is broken, however at times it still pisses me off when the random calls mid, we let him and he feeds then blames the team...
@lie to me agen fagt
I never said MM works as a competitive MM. It doesn't. I even explained how it makes it possible to match a 90% with a 10% SL. It is a casual MM - get it ffs.
Okay, lets talk about the Huskar game:
- It was a 40 min game with score 30-26.
- There are only 3 people with less than 100 cs for these 40 mins and only one of them on your squad the support.
- You have two players with minus KDA, but the enemy team has a bounty hunter who is also lvl 13 with only 5 assists (not so much track gold).
- 4 of the players on your team have blink daggers, which is most of the time a sign of a good game.
In other words - you have no right to blame the MM here. There is no way for the MM to know a teammate will pick meepo and will get raped - shit happens. You have too high expectations to a system, that doesn't even have visible rankings.
So you really think tham ta that was helped mid like 3 times has 2-9 score and meepo with almost the same score is ok?
Fucking... REALLY?
Zenoth has a good point. One player who was supposed to be strong relative to the rest having a bad game can turn it into a walkover. Although on my best heroes I really never have a bad KDA score. I have games where I totally domminate (ie 10 KDA) and games where I merely do ok (ie 3 KDA). But if I was supposed to be the strongest player on my team and have a mediocre performance that's usually a loss.
@You_Got_Fukt
I think good matches are the rule not the exception. Occasionally teams seem really unfair, but usually its like Zenoth said, things just snowballed from a bad start. I've seen best of 3 matches of powerful, closely matched pro teams, say Empire vs Navi, where Empire won the first game by a huge margin, and Navi game back and absolutely stomped them in the second game. Both cases they just won the first few engagements and snowballed.
The same thing can and often does happen in pub games. But you don't get to play several games with the same teams so you only see the bad game. You need to evaluate based on your own performance. Matchmaking does not know you. It is not set up against you personally. Sometimes your team will have an edge because of hero picks, sometimes not. Player skill will be pretty well balanced every time. If you can't pull the weight of your MMR then you will lose and drop down to easier games. If you are underated you will win and play harder games until you lose again.
Failure is a part of life. Learn from it instead of whining. If you want to never face difficulty then play dota 1, get a maphack, stack the teams, and put a thrower friend on the other team. Then you will be certain to win...but are such wins of any value? Winning is valuable when losing is possible. Winning is most valuable when losing was likely. Enjoy the challenge of your nub team.
Relentless, here we are no talking about unfair win, but about unfair loss. The conditions and events are very different.
Wins and losses are reciprocal. You can't have one without the other. They are the same game, just a different perspective.
Truly unfair matchmaking or a failure of the system would be if large numbers of people were getting 80% or 90% win. But that is not happening. Even pro players struggle to get much past 65% win. And almost everyone is between 45% and 55%. The system is working very well for its purpose, which is to produce fair games on average.
When everybody wins/losses 9, 10, or 11 games in every 20 trys...I don't see how you could ask for more.
Again, if the issue is not playing with bad players, then don't que with less than 5. Its a team game. If you want to really play it at a high level you have to get 5 players. The option to choose your team is fully available.
@lie to me agen fagt
My point about not picking a hero if you are not sure you can perform well still stands. I don't have as many games as you, but when your 2 out of 3 heroes have <50% winrate, that just means you are not that good with them. And the more games you play, the more are the chances it wasnt team fault, but you under-achieving. I for example can't play shit bounty hunter- my score is 0 6 I believe. I just don't pick him, its that simple. And if I want good chance to win, ill pick one of my top 10 heroes, which almost all have =>60% chance to win.
Relentless, you see, almost all wins and losses are artificially made. I have an even game 1 out of 10 if Im lucky, its a big difference if you have 50% winrate with a balanced mm and when its 50% becasue it keeps you at this rate. :))))))))))))))))))))))
I don't find that MM tries to keep you at 50%. For me, it tries to keep me at 53-55%, as I go rapidly between 2 values. I honestly think if you play the roles/heroes you are good with, even with "horrible luck" you can reach good winrate. For you, another problem is you played so many games it would be extremely hard to change your winrate at this point.
The Terrible, I wanna tell you a story. I created another acc and played a few games. I carried like 2 of 3 won games alone, but 4th game I got complete imbecils against a team with good teamplay and average skill. Needless to say that we lost. This only works one way - if you win, you will lose no matter what, not because its about percentage, but because mm will force you to lose.
Have you considered not playing carries? I don't play carries in 90% of my games because I know my team going to pick 1-2-3-4 of them.
Also, thats the whole point of MM- to create fair matches. That means that eventually you are going to loose. Do you want a system where you win 100%? Only way to have a chance of this is to play as 5 stack, obviously public MM not going to be able to balance games perfectly, and going to give you players of a lower caliber than you are when you are on a winning streak.
What did you expect from the MM? Do you understand why it can't gaurentee you every game a win or every game without players far weaker than you? Yes, its true winning a string of games will make you more and more likely to lose. Its the same with losing, more games lost in a row the teams will stack more and more in your favor. That is what is supposed to happen. The only way you can get very far from 50% is to play with a full team or be one of the best players in the world so that comparable opponents just don't exist in the que at time of you search.
Check out my 2 last games. Ofc idiots and no chances to win. Stop telling me your trash shit, its all vice versa in practice.
^You got outpushed son. Killing all the enemies isnt the only way to win the game. Your teammates (except for visage maybe) did ok job.
Yeah, except for shitty visage and sniper picker in ap.
The second game our pudge was feeding on purpose.
Thats what Im talking about - you will always get some forced losses if you begin to win more than several times in a row, not fucking random losses, but forced and thats the problem.
get some trustworthy stack and stfu, everyone might have a bad day, or trying a new hero, or u got a bad day, so u call everyone as feeders and such bla, i am just saying maybe, not 100% sure of wut im saying
but the easiest way to solve it is to get a stack, have some skype or teamspeak, anything, GET FRIENDS !!
But actually I got my proof that mm is broken, its enough to read You_got_Fukt's posts.
So all who protected this shitty system got proved they are incorrect, as sending good player+bad player in one team is something a smart man would never do.
GG brahs.
I also have this issue, but now it's getting better. It's true that mm currently is not working as it should be, but there are ways to make it "better". I am also rated high by DBR when it was first implemented (1957DBR), so mostly i went to the top mm brackets(platinum), but when sometimes I get low and entered a bracket with some people who lacks experience in DotA, I usually just keeps ordering them around (not using voice chat of course), because a game is mostly lost because of a lack of coordination. So, I mostly, always be the noisy bitch in my team telling people to put wards here and there, push here and there, gank shits and stuff, and IMO it's okay to be a bit annoying, as long as you can carry your team to victory. FYI I never liked sup's so I always farm shit and try to solo carry the team. Try to be a noisy bitch like me and maybe u will win more.
It's something a smart man would never do. But have you imagined when the system cannot find people of relatively similar skill level within a short period, and expands its search criteria? Imagine if you have a four stack, and the system finally finds a five stack to oppose you, but the average skill level is lower. How else would the system try to offset the skill difference? Try to understand the limitations the system has to work around with.
^Again, what you are saying are elements of any reasonable system, something I would agree with.
As I said before, pairing a high player with a lower player is OK, as long as that lower player isn't significantly out of their depth. Which is the problem I am encountering every now and then with a couple allies who are legitimately worse than bots.
Now do you believe that putting someone who is 0W-5L against a 5 stack of players who all have 500-1600 games is ok?
My last game - got russians saw and leoric, both had like 0-10. Outfarmed by me as roaming rubick.
No shit has changed.
One should be really retarded to think this is a good or even decent mm.
I just want to imagine what a painfull butthurt will u feel, if u lose to 5 rus playing with 4 eu. =D
^ You suck newb. Be happy that someone carries you, though you stay at the same low level.
Played with this sucker right now - http://dotabuff.com/players/94905680, how the hell can this shit have almost 52% winratre when he plays like a total imbecil?
Nice matchmaking indeed.
Well, living proof that winrate means nothing
Zenoth I have been trying to explain to them the impossibility of MM doing what they want for some time now but they just don't want to listen or think about it reasonably. I think they simply want to vent because they are frustrated that they can't find enough higher skilled friends to play with most of the time and get aggravated trying to carry far weaker players. They really don't want to understand or try the real solution (get more friends and que with 5). They just want to be mad.
The games really are fair, with a tiny handful of exceptions. Everyone knows it. If it were not true people would not be so close to 50%. Even the vast majority of people who stack with friends every game still only get 60/40 win loss or less. MM is working quite well.
Now occasionally (like the last 2 days) lots of new invites to beta go out and that does mess up MM for a little while. People choose experienced ratings because they played dota 1 for years, but they actually suck for the first few weeks so their MMR has to drop down and then come back up when they learn the new mechanics and hotkeys. If there are a lot of new invites game quality does drop for a few days until the new players get rated more accurately.
higher than 1KD in 4 of his last 20 games. what a beast
edit: oh look this jackass again
TELL ME, in what MM system is this a fair game?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/93233520
0W-5L, in a game against 5 stack of players who are 500-1600 wins.
Is that ok?
'The games really are fair, with a tiny handful of exceptions. Everyone knows it. If it were not true people would not be so close to 50%. Even the vast majority of people who stack with friends every game still only get 60/40 win loss or less. MM is working quite well.' I cant even imagine what happens inside your head. Ive told like 100 times that almost 80% of my losses are forced by matchmaking, you still keep mimimiing that its ok. Get some real sense, please.
Your definition of "good matchmaking" is then that you would not have 80% of your loses?
So that means you would win 90% of games and lose only 10%? Are you really that delusional or that narcissistic?
I bet you didn't even win 90% back when you could stack every game heavily in your favor in dota 1. You lose games when you can't carry your MMR. Just like everyone else. You don't deserve to win 90% and have bad players all on the other team...thats just absurd.
Why 90%? Maybe 60%. But that actually explains why I almost never lose my lane and had higher than 1900 dbr. And still, you cannot argue on the point my losses actually are forced, so your previous post was actually useless.
No losses are not "forced" they are simply more and more difficult and at some point you don't get better and better.
As I have explained many times already now - Matchmaking cannot balance the teams by giving you all good players because people que with very uneven skill on their teams. Since a group of 3 or 4 has one much weaker player, you have to get a weak player on your side to balance. The only way to avoid it is to que as 5. Either learn and change your behavior or don't learn and stupidly keep trying the same failed plan and whining that it does not work. I have explained how to not get bad players on your team so clearly...and I should not even have too because is so obvious how to do it.
If you que with 5 this is what will happen. You will face harder and harder opponents instead of getting weaker and weaker allies as your MMR increases. If you have a very very good team of 5 you might win 12+ games in a row before one can be found strong enough to beat you.
lie to me agen fagt, I played with u and won that easily. U are really average, so stop this trashtalk, kid=)
Relentless, forced losses. Stop your smart talking and think about this phrase. Forced losses.
^ You talking about a game when I had 3 retards in team or what? You do suck, russian newb. That game only proves my point.
Really funny how 2-3 kda guys want to offend me.
I'm so fucking sure all the people whining about the mm system are the crappiest of those bm pudge solo mid feeders.
As for me, it's all just fine. This month I have about 54 percent winrate, which is rather high compared to my average 49.
U always blame noob team and all other factors (like mm system)=) U look really poor. Let me hug u, little kid=)
^When you think every game is lost because of your team, time to think about maybe it was you, not team.
Yo, Дартаньян, friend me, lets play together.
steam name: p0tramp_kun
i wanna play with you guys too :(
2 is a group... 3 is a party :)
Lets try the contrapositive argument. I don't really expect you to see it, but so what I enjoy making it anyway.
Forced Wins man! Its so unfair. I'm new to dota and I am 15th percentile Bronze but no matter how much I fail I keep winning 47%. Every time I lose several games in a row I get these pros on my team who just carry me so hard I can't lose. Matchmaking fails why can't I get pubstomped into the ground game after game like I used to in dota 1.
It can't be that I didn't feed as hard as the nub on the other team...no no its these pros on my team they just pwn so hard I win no matter what I do. The more I lose the more certain my next game will be a win. I am Forced to win. Like 80% of my wins are undeserved. Man I hate this MM system.
^
made my day
"Matchmaking cannot balance the teams by giving you all good players" - and I said that this is fine, as long as the player isn't that far below the rest of the people in the game. But maybe, just maybe, if read my post, you would see that someone who was 0W-5L somehow managed to get into a game against a 5 stack of players ranging from 500-1600 games? Is that considered ok in your books? Respond to this, because you constantly avoid it, and keep talking about how you think the MM system works, when it clearly is doing other things that are far from normal.
"Since a group of 3 or 4 has one much weaker player, you have to get a weak player on your side to balance"
Which of the players in the game I linked were so bad that they should be facing someone who is 0W-5L?
"You will face harder and harder opponents" - is that why this 5 stack faced someone who was 0W-5L? Does that classify as tough opponents? Heck even me at the time being 3W-4L shouldn't have been in that game. So 5 players queuing with 500-1600 games face 2 people with under 10 games that are 3W-4L and 0W-5L is harder opponents?
"No losses are not "forced" they are simply more and more difficult and at some point you don't get better and better." - I disagree with this completely. The games you can get thrown into don't just range from 45-55% or something, they can go completely down one side, because one or two players are playing way out of their bracket, and they don't even have the stats to suggest that they should even be in the game in the first place.
I already answered the first point, twice in general, but I could be more specific.
First the 0-5 guy chose "experienced" and starts in High bracket, loses the first few games and begins his drop to where he belongs. Since you do actually win the game and it looks close...maybe it WAS fair?
The opposing team is a stack of bad friends who, yes have played a lot...but still are low skill players. 4 of the 5 have more losses than wins, and this guy
http://dotabuff.com/players/66784301
is very very bad, he plays almost all lich and has terrible stats even on a super easy hero he plays all the time. His win% without lich would be nearly 45%. He is probably in the bottom 10% of all dota players. Happy now? The other team did have b a terrible player also. I have no doubt his MMR matches your 0-5 nubs MMR.
Yes, you were the tough opponent, but they had their Bronze scum friend which was balanced by your 0-5 nub. If you don't want bad players in your game then you have to exclude them from YOUR team silly. You can't just hope the other team doesnt let a nub friend play with them. That's the whole point. YOU DID NOT QUE AS 5.
You don't carefully analyze the stats. You can't see the MMR. You don't judge whether the game was fair correctly. Any one game can be lopsided just because one player is drunk or having a bad game. You can't cherry pick a game and say "look matchmaking is broken". But even though you tried!!! This game was quite obviously fair!
Hell man, you even won the game, and your 0-5 nub ended up 7-5-4 KDA oh no! how horrible! what a huge feed! Was he the worst player by far on your team? Obviously yes. Did it make the game unplayable? Obviously no. It was a fair match.
Again, there are no restrictions at all on who is in a game. There is no such thing as a "Gold Bracket" and never was. Gold was the score dotabuff assigned to You personally at the time of the game. It is not a score for game or the players in the game...just you.
Very bad feeders play in Very High games. Real Pro players play in Normal games. This happens all the time because people do not que as 5. It is IMPOSSIBLE to control the skill range for matchmaking if you don't do it yourself by choosing your team. Its not Valves fault, there is no algorithm or program that can be made to fix it...it is the choice of the players to play with their friends. If you choose to not do this...then you will be balanced by getting worse and worse allies as you raise your MMR. That is the only way it can work...unless you want to sit in que for an hour or 2 or even 3 hours waiting for the game like ThroneIT Tier 3 always did.
Well the MM system isnt broken IMO. Everyone is more badder than me so I always end up in games with 9 people that are more badder than me.
Most people just think they are good when they are actually bad.