In my opinion he was balanced when his charge didnt proc greater bash on the charge target ..... now he doesnt need ulti to kill someone.
Some people on this thread play on very high .... and maybe there players actually see the map ..... but if i play support and even if a i ward the whole map .... believe my teammates are going to get ganked. The thing is that i can actually not get ganked or killed by him .... but how i am supposed to save all my team ? The only way to win against him is trying to counter feed and stomp the enemy team harder than he is stomping your team.
"On serious note, if u want for ur teammates to have better execution, talk to them in pubs. Coordinate people if noone is doing that.
Not that hard." I guess that you forgot how normal braket looks like ..... when i do this i usually get something like a "CYKA" in response.
I usually pick timber against him, wait for him to buy mask of madness and make him explode.
^I mostly get normal bracket when I stack with some randoms. Just learn russian, problem solved.
Or actually get into very high. Once again, I seen bara 5 times in the last month in my games, I can imagine he is picked more than closer you are to ELO HELL
And what is your opinion about his bash not working based on PRD like void bash and slardar bash ? I see people not getting bash at all OR getting 3 or 4 bash in a row.
You seem to have problems coz you are shouting pointless sentences at forums. Still I give you some numbers considering what you said and I want you to give them a little thought 1# picked hero Pudge with 47.84 winrate, 2# picked hero Bara with 58.83 winrate, which one would you think is OP?
OFFTOPIC: And considering you crying about Batrider, from dota-academy competitive winrate for Batrider is 51 and from DB pub winrate for Batrider 46.25. And now when we are talking about pubs I would say that Bara is they guy we should talk about. I'm not denying that Batrider is very strong but IMO it's more about teams just hating to play against that hero.
Lol of course I'm not being serious about most of these things I'm saying but all these guys are crying about a hero that is not even a tier 2 pick. They just don't know how to deal with it and they always say they do.
"*insert any hero* isn't OP, they just don't know how to deal with it" and then proceed not to give any evidence, best logic and there's no way to argue with that. Like discussing with religious people who just say "you can't prove God doesn't exist" and even if you give some evidence they just ignore it.
This guy's Bible is obviously competitive gaming and when meta changes then his religion changes a bit. Like when Gyrocopter came, he wasn't picked for a long time in games but suddenly some teams realized that he is good and then these guys started to think that Gyro is good. If something isn't part of meta it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be good, meta changes and it isn't that optimal as some ppl might think.
If we are talking about pubs, then warlock is op. I mean, if my memory doesn't fail me, the only time he hasn't had the highest winrate of any hero in the game was when Drow's aura was global and affected range and siege creeps, yet nobody bitches about him.
You know, if you see a Barathrum being picked, then use an even gayer strategy against him. And by "gayer" strategy, I mean pick both Treant and Abaddon.
Warlock is strong in low pubs where matches are defined by large teamfights because teams don't understand to avoid 5v5 fights when enemy has Warlock. In matches where there are lot of small skirmishes Warlock isn't that strong. And when people understand how Fatal Bonds work he is not that strong in laning phase either because there is quite low skill cap in usage of Fatal Bonds or his heal and that slow is just quite bad. Compared to Charge that can be used as global ganging tool, aoe stun, escape mechanism etc and his aura gives him and his team lot of mobility which gives much higher skillcap. Yes bash is random but the change in it seems to be higher than it is meant to be and you can rise your changes by buying right items.
i dont know why people are complaining about sb, night stalker is like much stronger than sb. and all you need to do to counter sb is to push as 5. hes useless in team fight cause hes single target.
Night Stalker has 39,39 winrate against Bara so your counter seems to be bit off. Actually Bara is 7th worst possible matchup for NS if we check advantage (-2,03%) and if we check NS in all matchups, against Bara it is 2nd worst. And if we check Diamond bracket NS has 39,28 winrate against Bara which is even worse than average of brackets.
Let me tell you why Bara counters Night Stalker. NS can't roam effectively bcoz of Charge vision and NS can't trade hits with Bara bcoz Bara has bash and is way more tanky. NS is also found alone very easilywhich is perfect for Bara. Yes you can stop his Charge but then you need to worry about rest of his stuff.
Only thing that can be said as a counter is Treant which really shines at Diamond bracket with -4,82% advantage for Bara. So there is one effective counter for this hero, only one that can give you over 50% winning change is high brackets and still people say that he isn't overpowered. Do you even think what overpowered means?
I didn't read most of this but you saying "NS can't trade hits with SB" when he has Crippling Fear really made it. Also how is SB "way tanky" than NS? He just has more base STR and has 0.5 less STR gain. And a NS will probably be higher leveled and farmed and even if it is day there is very little chance a SB will get that kill unless he is a bashlord.
Untill lvl 16 Bara will have more strenght from levels/base str than NS and they basicly have same armor. So in the first night when NS should make most happen, Bara will be more tanky if they have same items.
Maybe I exaggerated it a bit but it is just stupid to say that NS would be a good counter to Bara as you can see from the numbers. NS is not the easiest solo kill for Bara but NS won't be killing Bara in 1v1 either, that's for sure. And when the day comes and NS tries to get some farm at lane, 10% miss change from Crippling Fear won't save you...
PS. Get your facts right 2.4 vs 2.8 is not 0.5 less str gain
As I said, I didn't read most of it. NS sure isn't a counter to him but neither is bad against him. I though NS had 2.9 but that's not the thing. NS also has more AGI gain means more armor and he is also way faster at night making him even harder to kill. The fact is you just keep defending SB being OP against anything people says.
There hasn't been any real arguments so far and you are not better at me that way, you haven't give any real proofs for you saying that Bara is not OP and just keep saying it whatever ppl say. And I think this NS discussion is quite pointless because anyone should understand that NS is not a real counter to Bara, just check the numbers I gave already.
"unless he is a bashlord." I am really the only fucking player in the world who gets bashed AT LEAST 2 times in a row and sometimes 3 times ?????????? I mean this is the only thing that i really hate on this hero.
Okay then.
1) He is not a real carry nor a real support. He is a cross between two that makes ineffective in most cases. If you go for carry with him, you will get outcarried by almost everything. If you go support, then you won't benefit from the bash as much and you won't get the levels you need. Going mid can kind of work but he will have a hard time against most ranged heroes. Making him support makes him gank in his spare time but most people don't play him support anyway.
2) He is purely luck dependant. If you don't get any follow-up bashes in your ganks, they won't be successful. Maybe that's why I don't think he is OP as I really don't get bashes.
3) Bash is magical damage so it won't go throught BKB. Disable will but bash is all your damage so Na'ix actually rapes him.
That's all I could find for now.
"Maybe that's why I don't think he is OP as I really don't get bashes." I dont know man maybe for you is 17 % but for me its at least 35 %. Yeah but i agree that he cant really lane properly ..... sometimes he can work as a offlaner though .... and against melee mids he does pretty well .
Edit: I really dont know why they did greater bash to proc on charge target ..... now the charge stun makes no sense and you can just level bash early
few months ago I played visage and liked him so much. I was winning with him a lot. But he was an outcast then. I made myself believe that he is actually bad and started seeing only his bad sides. suddenly, visage became a tier 1 hero.
conclusion: pros know nothing about drafting, do not trust pro pick tiers.
In pubs Diamond it is much different from competitive games.
In pubs he is still a gd hero, he is even better in Diamond because they won't just charge a fed pudge, or cent, maybe a hero with a hex, or charge lion while they are half hp (and lion's ult is not on cd).
Bara is really broken. With 2 gauntlets, 2 Branches he has 900 HP and 5 Armor at start. So there is no way you keep him from farming. He forces the entire enemy team to be always aware of TP reactions, wich is highly uncommon if you do not stack. During midgame you are forced to 5 man. A good spiritbreaker will not fall for your lame traps.
I dunno what skillbracket terrible is talkin about, since he is in high/normal matchmaking in the games he posted. In very high games it is really hard to handle a spiritbreaker. If you built a team arround a spiritbreaker he can become unstoppable.
If you combine a spiritbreaker with a Lifestealer jungling, or a Furion/AA/Zeus or an Invi hero you get incredible global presence. Try to do something against a spiritbreaker Naix/Bomb during midgame. After the charge/netherstrike/infest combo most heros are simply dead and you will not be able to finish of the magicimmune lifestealer. By this time the SB has like 1500 Hp and 10 armor. If the enemy team has some vision in your jungle with bara on team, good luck with proper tp reaction.
It requires a little shit of teamplay to extend baras brokenness to an absurd amount and a very, very decent Teamplay to stop him from raping you.
Most heros can be 1 item ahead and get still raped by bara. Your carry has no chance to farm safe.
@The Terrible
1. Game
The SP on the enemy team had 19 Kills, and the Game dragged on for 1:08. So you did not stop him midgame, you just won one cruical fight in the very late game. This can happen with every hero. The bara did a decent job.
2. Game
You did not stop the spiritbreaker. You stopped the rest of team. Bara ended up with a all feeding team. So ofc he won't win it 9v1 in a game, with 4 feeding bobmates. Not even in normal bracket.
3. Game
This one seems pretty even on the first look. But your Juggernaut was just insame fed with 24-5. Ofc a mega fed hero will kill a bara. And the spiritbreaker went for aga, wich is supreme retarded. Give him an AC, and he will do better.
4. Game
Anitmage with 16 Kills, and a poorly doing riki. No idea how the enemy team laned this. You dragged this one to 44 Min. I did not watch it but ofc an antimage after 44 min kills a sb.
5. Game
Rambo 49% Winratio Normalbracket SB in a High tier gam, with 6-18. Thats not impressive.
Btw: No very high tier game at all.
On the other hand:
Check this rape, very high tier with some global combo:
No I'm saying no part of his bashes should go through bkb. Then he'd be pretty balanced, you get charged you can bkb or you can bkb in team fights and he can't lol ult you, take you out til it wears off.
lol wow i never said Ns is a counter to bara, what im saying is that NS is a much better tanky ganker hero in general because he can use silence. NS is also much better in group fight.
The real spirit breaker counter is to stick together and push towers ( heroes that benefit well in 5 v 5 team fight pretty much counter spirit breaker EX; warlock ) illusion heroes also work. Spirit breaker is still a single target hero with no aoe, unless he use agh but with agh hes much more useless.
@terrible Nyx was broken then, everyone knew it, and he got nerfed. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
Yeah bro sure.
Nyx was nerfed the moment people learned of this item called sentry. Minor mana burn nerf did not made any less of a killing machine he still is.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pseudo-random_distribution
I mean why is his bash not PRD based ? I often find myself getting more bash with bara than with void or slardar.
http://www.twitch.tv/blitzdota/c/2844483 ( This happens way too often )
My personal record is 3 bash in a row <3.
In my opinion he was balanced when his charge didnt proc greater bash on the charge target ..... now he doesnt need ulti to kill someone.
Some people on this thread play on very high .... and maybe there players actually see the map ..... but if i play support and even if a i ward the whole map .... believe my teammates are going to get ganked. The thing is that i can actually not get ganked or killed by him .... but how i am supposed to save all my team ? The only way to win against him is trying to counter feed and stomp the enemy team harder than he is stomping your team.
"On serious note, if u want for ur teammates to have better execution, talk to them in pubs. Coordinate people if noone is doing that.
Not that hard." I guess that you forgot how normal braket looks like ..... when i do this i usually get something like a "CYKA" in response.
I usually pick timber against him, wait for him to buy mask of madness and make him explode.
He also got massive carapace nerf in 6.77c and that stopped him from going mid and mana burning your Queen of Pain, that was the problem.
^I mostly get normal bracket when I stack with some randoms. Just learn russian, problem solved.
Or actually get into very high. Once again, I seen bara 5 times in the last month in my games, I can imagine he is picked more than closer you are to ELO HELL
And what is your opinion about his bash not working based on PRD like void bash and slardar bash ? I see people not getting bash at all OR getting 3 or 4 bash in a row.
@The Terrible
He's 10th picked in Diamond and 4th picked in Platinium
Yeah there is Pudge in every game as well. NERF PUDGE PLS TOO OP!!
@Sam Fuckin' Peckinpah
You seem to have problems coz you are shouting pointless sentences at forums. Still I give you some numbers considering what you said and I want you to give them a little thought 1# picked hero Pudge with 47.84 winrate, 2# picked hero Bara with 58.83 winrate, which one would you think is OP?
OFFTOPIC: And considering you crying about Batrider, from dota-academy competitive winrate for Batrider is 51 and from DB pub winrate for Batrider 46.25. And now when we are talking about pubs I would say that Bara is they guy we should talk about. I'm not denying that Batrider is very strong but IMO it's more about teams just hating to play against that hero.
Lol of course I'm not being serious about most of these things I'm saying but all these guys are crying about a hero that is not even a tier 2 pick. They just don't know how to deal with it and they always say they do.
Oh I understand so you ignore people who dont agree with you and you give 0 arguments about your opinion? You must be totally right bro.
I ignore people that don't agree with me? Seriously? That's why I replied him it seems. W/e not gonna waste my time here.
@Sam Fuckin' Peckinpah
"*insert any hero* isn't OP, they just don't know how to deal with it" and then proceed not to give any evidence, best logic and there's no way to argue with that. Like discussing with religious people who just say "you can't prove God doesn't exist" and even if you give some evidence they just ignore it.
This guy's Bible is obviously competitive gaming and when meta changes then his religion changes a bit. Like when Gyrocopter came, he wasn't picked for a long time in games but suddenly some teams realized that he is good and then these guys started to think that Gyro is good. If something isn't part of meta it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be good, meta changes and it isn't that optimal as some ppl might think.
If we are talking about pubs, then warlock is op. I mean, if my memory doesn't fail me, the only time he hasn't had the highest winrate of any hero in the game was when Drow's aura was global and affected range and siege creeps, yet nobody bitches about him.
You know, if you see a Barathrum being picked, then use an even gayer strategy against him. And by "gayer" strategy, I mean pick both Treant and Abaddon.
@[Lk].Zano
Bara winrate @ Platinium 60.03, Warlock winrate @ Platinium 58.15
Bara winrate @ Diamond 60.11, Warlock winrate @ Platinium 56.51
Warlock is strong in low pubs where matches are defined by large teamfights because teams don't understand to avoid 5v5 fights when enemy has Warlock. In matches where there are lot of small skirmishes Warlock isn't that strong. And when people understand how Fatal Bonds work he is not that strong in laning phase either because there is quite low skill cap in usage of Fatal Bonds or his heal and that slow is just quite bad. Compared to Charge that can be used as global ganging tool, aoe stun, escape mechanism etc and his aura gives him and his team lot of mobility which gives much higher skillcap. Yes bash is random but the change in it seems to be higher than it is meant to be and you can rise your changes by buying right items.
i dont know why people are complaining about sb, night stalker is like much stronger than sb. and all you need to do to counter sb is to push as 5. hes useless in team fight cause hes single target.
^
if you want to counter sb, then pick ns. The slow makes his charge useless and ns can easily tank bara afterwards
@Lavexis
Night Stalker has 39,39 winrate against Bara so your counter seems to be bit off. Actually Bara is 7th worst possible matchup for NS if we check advantage (-2,03%) and if we check NS in all matchups, against Bara it is 2nd worst. And if we check Diamond bracket NS has 39,28 winrate against Bara which is even worse than average of brackets.
Let me tell you why Bara counters Night Stalker. NS can't roam effectively bcoz of Charge vision and NS can't trade hits with Bara bcoz Bara has bash and is way more tanky. NS is also found alone very easilywhich is perfect for Bara. Yes you can stop his Charge but then you need to worry about rest of his stuff.
Only thing that can be said as a counter is Treant which really shines at Diamond bracket with -4,82% advantage for Bara. So there is one effective counter for this hero, only one that can give you over 50% winning change is high brackets and still people say that he isn't overpowered. Do you even think what overpowered means?
I didn't read most of this but you saying "NS can't trade hits with SB" when he has Crippling Fear really made it. Also how is SB "way tanky" than NS? He just has more base STR and has 0.5 less STR gain. And a NS will probably be higher leveled and farmed and even if it is day there is very little chance a SB will get that kill unless he is a bashlord.
@Sam Fuckin' Peckinpah
Untill lvl 16 Bara will have more strenght from levels/base str than NS and they basicly have same armor. So in the first night when NS should make most happen, Bara will be more tanky if they have same items.
Maybe I exaggerated it a bit but it is just stupid to say that NS would be a good counter to Bara as you can see from the numbers. NS is not the easiest solo kill for Bara but NS won't be killing Bara in 1v1 either, that's for sure. And when the day comes and NS tries to get some farm at lane, 10% miss change from Crippling Fear won't save you...
PS. Get your facts right 2.4 vs 2.8 is not 0.5 less str gain
As I said, I didn't read most of it. NS sure isn't a counter to him but neither is bad against him. I though NS had 2.9 but that's not the thing. NS also has more AGI gain means more armor and he is also way faster at night making him even harder to kill. The fact is you just keep defending SB being OP against anything people says.
@Sam Fuckin' Peckinpah
There hasn't been any real arguments so far and you are not better at me that way, you haven't give any real proofs for you saying that Bara is not OP and just keep saying it whatever ppl say. And I think this NS discussion is quite pointless because anyone should understand that NS is not a real counter to Bara, just check the numbers I gave already.
Lmao Sam Fukin peckinpah - have mercy notailsama!!! Lol
"unless he is a bashlord." I am really the only fucking player in the world who gets bashed AT LEAST 2 times in a row and sometimes 3 times ?????????? I mean this is the only thing that i really hate on this hero.
Okay then.
1) He is not a real carry nor a real support. He is a cross between two that makes ineffective in most cases. If you go for carry with him, you will get outcarried by almost everything. If you go support, then you won't benefit from the bash as much and you won't get the levels you need. Going mid can kind of work but he will have a hard time against most ranged heroes. Making him support makes him gank in his spare time but most people don't play him support anyway.
2) He is purely luck dependant. If you don't get any follow-up bashes in your ganks, they won't be successful. Maybe that's why I don't think he is OP as I really don't get bashes.
3) Bash is magical damage so it won't go throught BKB. Disable will but bash is all your damage so Na'ix actually rapes him.
That's all I could find for now.
"Maybe that's why I don't think he is OP as I really don't get bashes." I dont know man maybe for you is 17 % but for me its at least 35 %. Yeah but i agree that he cant really lane properly ..... sometimes he can work as a offlaner though .... and against melee mids he does pretty well .
Edit: I really dont know why they did greater bash to proc on charge target ..... now the charge stun makes no sense and you can just level bash early
For some misterious reason his bash isn't pseudo-random. Yea, volvo pls.
What? Only the stun part of bash goes through bkb not the dmg? Well still pretty stupid. If they just fixed that he'd be well balanced.
Wait. You mean they should buff him?
few months ago I played visage and liked him so much. I was winning with him a lot. But he was an outcast then. I made myself believe that he is actually bad and started seeing only his bad sides. suddenly, visage became a tier 1 hero.
conclusion: pros know nothing about drafting, do not trust pro pick tiers.
In pubs Diamond it is much different from competitive games.
In pubs he is still a gd hero, he is even better in Diamond because they won't just charge a fed pudge, or cent, maybe a hero with a hex, or charge lion while they are half hp (and lion's ult is not on cd).
Bara is really broken. With 2 gauntlets, 2 Branches he has 900 HP and 5 Armor at start. So there is no way you keep him from farming. He forces the entire enemy team to be always aware of TP reactions, wich is highly uncommon if you do not stack. During midgame you are forced to 5 man. A good spiritbreaker will not fall for your lame traps.
I dunno what skillbracket terrible is talkin about, since he is in high/normal matchmaking in the games he posted. In very high games it is really hard to handle a spiritbreaker. If you built a team arround a spiritbreaker he can become unstoppable.
If you combine a spiritbreaker with a Lifestealer jungling, or a Furion/AA/Zeus or an Invi hero you get incredible global presence. Try to do something against a spiritbreaker Naix/Bomb during midgame. After the charge/netherstrike/infest combo most heros are simply dead and you will not be able to finish of the magicimmune lifestealer. By this time the SB has like 1500 Hp and 10 armor. If the enemy team has some vision in your jungle with bara on team, good luck with proper tp reaction.
It requires a little shit of teamplay to extend baras brokenness to an absurd amount and a very, very decent Teamplay to stop him from raping you.
Most heros can be 1 item ahead and get still raped by bara. Your carry has no chance to farm safe.
@The Terrible
1. Game
The SP on the enemy team had 19 Kills, and the Game dragged on for 1:08. So you did not stop him midgame, you just won one cruical fight in the very late game. This can happen with every hero. The bara did a decent job.
2. Game
You did not stop the spiritbreaker. You stopped the rest of team. Bara ended up with a all feeding team. So ofc he won't win it 9v1 in a game, with 4 feeding bobmates. Not even in normal bracket.
3. Game
This one seems pretty even on the first look. But your Juggernaut was just insame fed with 24-5. Ofc a mega fed hero will kill a bara. And the spiritbreaker went for aga, wich is supreme retarded. Give him an AC, and he will do better.
4. Game
Anitmage with 16 Kills, and a poorly doing riki. No idea how the enemy team laned this. You dragged this one to 44 Min. I did not watch it but ofc an antimage after 44 min kills a sb.
5. Game
Rambo 49% Winratio Normalbracket SB in a High tier gam, with 6-18. Thats not impressive.
Btw: No very high tier game at all.
On the other hand:
Check this rape, very high tier with some global combo:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/319594832
The darkseer left this one after 4 min and the magnus was just pure feed. We still raped with SB/Furion/AA combo.
http://dotabuff.com/players/115008879/matches?hero=spirit-breaker&game_mode=&match_type=real
My mate sometimes buys a blink or diffu on sb, just to fool arround.
You can run But you can't Hide - Bara
http://www.twitch.tv/joindotared what about you guys see him in action?
No I'm saying no part of his bashes should go through bkb. Then he'd be pretty balanced, you get charged you can bkb or you can bkb in team fights and he can't lol ult you, take you out til it wears off.
It's just bash mechanic. All bashes go through magic immunity so this one as well.
lol wow i never said Ns is a counter to bara, what im saying is that NS is a much better tanky ganker hero in general because he can use silence. NS is also much better in group fight.
The real spirit breaker counter is to stick together and push towers ( heroes that benefit well in 5 v 5 team fight pretty much counter spirit breaker EX; warlock ) illusion heroes also work. Spirit breaker is still a single target hero with no aoe, unless he use agh but with agh hes much more useless.
Meet my friend
http://dotabuff.com/players/70939375/matches?hero=spirit-breaker&game_mode=&match_type=real