General DiscussionWhat would you do to Tinker to make him "not broken"

Buff him

Buff every other hero in the game. Ez.

remove miss chance from laser

remove his non ulti skills

Buy eul 2700 gold since it debuff ethernal and kill him
Or while he's on ethernal, dagon him.

Remove shift-queue or make rearm reset cd to something like 0.02s instead of 0s

"make rearm reset cd to something like 0.02s instead of 0s"

there's still a channel time incorporated into the ability, as well as the cast animation of 0.53s or some shit (is that the value?), so that change to the cooldown does nothing.

it's like slark's cooldown on essence shift, he can't attack that fast anyways that the cooldown change makes no difference, unless he has max attack speed and somehow hasn't maxed essence shift and below level 16.

Hood of Defiance, BKB, Any silencing item/hero.

^ It makes insta blink out of DoT impossible harder in most cases which is what tinker shouldnt be allowed to do

remove miss chance from laser

STOP THIS, dont nerf him

no it doesnt, because the cooldown has no effect, the 0.02s cooldown will never come into effect because tinker will spend 0.51 seconds performing the cast animation of rearm, and 0.98s channeling it.

insta blinking out of dot has nothing to do with blink cooldown, it's due to the fact that damage over time spells deal their damage in periodic intervals, and a tinker can reset both the 14s cooldown and the 3s damage cooldown of the blink dagger so that he can blink before the next tick of damage takes effect.

some spells deal damage in 3 second intervals like qop or veno Q, they're easy. other stuff like rot has a 0.2s window before the next tick, or ion shell with 1 tick of damage every 0.1 seconds

and yes he should be allowed to do that because it requires precise timing on the tinker's part to time the rearm so that the next tick of damage from a dot does not activate before he blinks away, also requires accounting for turn time and the cast animation. plus you cannot shift queue the blink because you can't shift queue abilities on cooldown, you'd have to have to blink extremely fast and also hope that you're not lagging, since you can't shift queue, ping has a factor when you're talking about such small time intervals.

I just want to say that most people that call this hero broken does not play him, against certain heroes is almost imposible to survive with tinker

Right now in a pub necro is way more broken

What about shift-queing dagger that isnt on cd and when rearm is used to reset the trigger?

Yes you have a point that dot spells have different intervals, 0.02s is just an arbitrary number.

Ok my bad, it doesnt work, you're right

There's a lot of players saying the hero is broken, and saying only players who doesnt play Tinker is invalid.

Everybody at The Summit claimed hero is broken, xcalibur said hero is extrmly broken. I said its broken, a lot of people did. Come with a valid statement:-))

Saying hero isn't broken cause u can cancel his blink, swap him or anything like this is neither valid

gank him on early game and block ancient
make him BOT at 20min
http://dotabuff.com/matches/721195037

March of the Machines must be global and damage buildings. =)

* points out flaw in argument

* ITS ARBITRARY DUDE

again the 0.02s doesn't make a difference because tinker's rearm is limited by the actual channeling time of rearm, and the only way a cooldown makes a difference is when rearm gets cancelled, which damage over time spells don't do, unless it's malefice, and the problem with malefice isn't the damage over time cancelling blink, it's the constant mini stuns cancelling rearm.

e.g. lets say rearm instead has a 30/25/20 channeling time, and a 10s cooldown. these are arbitrary numbers but important to note that the channel time has to be longer than the cooldown, just like with your example.

no matter what happens, if the channel goes through, rearm is never going to be on cooldown, because 10 seconds into the channel, the cooldown of the spell is going to take longer than the channel itself. and you are going to be able to constantly rearm, which is why a rearm cooldown has no effect on blink dagger vs dots, because dots dont cancel rearm.

a real example of this would be sand king's sand storm at the higher levels, the channel time > duration, meaning the cooldown has no effect on whether you can have constant sand storms or not (or in the case of tinker' constant rearms).

if you're shift queueing dagger that isn't on cooldown then you aren't taking damage in the first place, so this direction of the argument is not going to lead anywhere.

edit: the channelling time of the spell is going to take longer than the cooldown
mixed up two words

I mean the hero didnt get any buffs at all except that shitty aghs, no one fucking played the hero before

You know what is tinker winrate in competitive in this patch ? 40 % , fucking 40 % and in total (all patchs ) is even lower i think

and in pubs 43 %

Seriously except against really high skilled tinkers ( 5k or 6k, there is 0 really good tinkers below 5k ) its easy to kill him and its easy to win against him, if you lost against him its your fucking fault. I understand that in 5k 6k the hero might be really annoying but i dont think that its enough reason to nerf him

remove him

Go check his winrate in pro games http://www.datdota.com/heroes.php

hes annoying because if there's 1 march you have to fuck off, if there's 2 marches you have to fuck off asap, and there are always marches because he has infinite mana, and he's on every lane

honestly if march didn't hit heroes i think it would be fine, maybe he'd be too weak so buff him some other way

nerf ulti to about 50%

If bet my ass that if you nerf him more he is going to get 20 % winrate in competitive

You're right, i had the misconception you could shift queue a disabled/cd dagger. Anyway, my point was that rearm resets dagger cd instantly after it is channeled, if you're fast enough you can blink out of DoT. It has barely anything to do with cast point or channeling time.

In the heat of things, i doubt you would be able to time the rearm accounting for cast point, channel time and turn rate against DoT unless its something as simple as qop ss. And all the more, since you also have to factor in ping, why not add in that "0.02s cd" after it is channeled so that it levels out the playing field since not everyone has the luxury of playing at 5ms.

* To Clarify, what i've meant was implementing a 0.02 sec cd after rearm goes through on all of tinker's abilities/items, not a 0.02 sec cd on rearm itself.

Wow I didn't know his competitive winrate was that low....

Well it isnt that low. Dorkly doesn't have his stats right. It's not very impressive, but it's closer to 50% than 40%. (46% to be exact.)

Whatever

Oh its 46 % ? Ups i didnt see it right sorry

Easy to counter him.. If u want to play him with late game,, just get spectre.. he can push with his radiance and also his ulti is so pesty in teafights.. which one do u hex? which one do u dagon? or even if hes hiding in the woods. pop ur ulti.
Spirit breaker is also a good example.. rush bkb.. and block his split pushing.
Also a great counter would be kunkka, do your combo when u see tinker.
Go bloodseeker mid, own him mid, because he is so vulnerable using that soul ring farming ancients, gank him, use silence, use your ulti.

Also BKB counters tinker very strong.. even hero like mirana can shut him down mid if you play well
Or
Just smoke 5 man wait for tinker to tp in.. fuck him up!
Or
Get Mirana and do same thing as above

insta pick tinker first

If you insta pick tinker there is always an asshole picking storm

Peoples responses are cute, posting that one game where they were lucky enough to get a new tinker or were able to shut him down. Truth is tinker does so well because of the disorganization of most groups, if there's coordination in a group then perhaps you are able to shut him down but for the most part tinkers will have a decently timed pair of boots and then he will just split you up till he has his dagon and such then just go around pushing and shot gunning people over and over.

^

Had a game with random pub where i said "buy blademail everyone and sell your least needed item in your inventory NOW"

Lucky for me everyone did it and we won with 1 rax left.

Yeah killing hard enemies when they ball out of control typically needs a joined effort to stop someone. I think every hero is a problem when they are heavily farmed. Tinker is just no exception to that rule.

people realizing how hard storm with BKB rapes Tinker

Man i understand people saying that IO was OP, or Bat, or those kind of heroes that were first pick/ban in competitive games with really high winrates, but tinker i dont even see he winning that much in competitive

It's hard to think about a good nerf to Tinker that wouldn't break the hero though.
You'd have to nerf stupid stuff like his missiles, Laser or some stats, because if you touch March or Rearm you may as well be turning him into a shittier Zeus/NP fusion.

when i picked tinker to squeeze at 6k+ rating after calibration people realized the hero is broken now

lul but the hero isnt broken, its mostly coordination. there are some unique builds with the hero as well and going dagon after blink is game losing most of the times

I just want you to remove this massive pve march blink bullshit. Maybe lower the aoe of march strongly so he can't flashfarm as fast

Thanks wave this thing of not having anyone over 5k supporting that tinker is not broken was killing me

Now i just need zenoth to come over here and support the fact that Tinker is not broken :P

You're kinda invalid with what you're saying Dorkly, cause wave who's a very good player says hero isn't broken doesn't entirely mean that's the truth cause he's a 6k player. Xcalibur is a 6k player and claims hero is extremely broken.

However, I might been a bit frustrated when I made this thread considering picking a hero that doesn't care about positioning ~ Storm Spirit kinda rapes Tinkers potentional. Heroes has counters, but I just find Tinker too strong in many aspects. 1500nuke with 1sec cooldown, stop pushes, good laner (easily gankable, but many heroes are easily gankable. Fast tp rotations can avoid deaths, aswell as stacking ancient will give him hits BoTs nevertheless.) and one of the best lategame heroes with all this.

Tinker is just so fcuking annoying to play against, cause even if you have a 20k gold advantage you might not be able to go highground cause of march and rocket spam.

Also I doubt there's any good Tinker players that can annoy you at 3-4k anyway sowhtrevr

Like what i was saying is that i understand that the hero is REALLY annoying to play against but i dont think he is op

I am not saying that because a high mmr player says something it needs to be truth but i know that a lot of people actually cares about the relation beetween MMR/Opinion so that its why i think its nice to have some high mmr people agree with me here :P

Maybe i am being Impartial because i like to play the hero a lot, i dont know

Owell, however I figured you had some really nice KDA's on your top heroes. GJ m8. Not enough to carry 3k scrubs? :|

Nop is not that, i just suck ass in this game

http://dotabuff.com/matches/721789073

my team had four picks to counter tinker right after he insta-locked it

Earth Spirit in decent hands is a GREAT counter to Tinker

So is Storm

and Nyx

and Void

I just want to say that your team was pretty gay zenoth

who does that

Yeah, I spectated that game. However if you have no counters to tinker (hero-wise) it's not the same as having no counter to any other hero.

May just be my frustration towards this hero by delaying games for 40minutes and wipes you after buyback in the lategame cause you dove a bit too hard against this robot :|