General Discussion5k-5.5k is truly elo heaven, and I'll explain why

The match looks decent....here is something similar that happened in 4.4K

http://dotabuff.com/matches/749328546

Got wrecked by Cent cause I was solo safelane and wasn't aware of just how much damage he could do to me so quickly. I picked up later and got carried by Legion and BS who in turn (when I was doing better) threw the game completely by diving constantly with the Bara. Crystal was utter garbage and didn't support for dick so it was a lot harder to get off the ground.

Wraith is so strong but does need a little bit of safe farm to get to the point where he is literally unstoppable and the game is over http://dotabuff.com/players/90503334/matches?date=&faction=&hero=wraith-king&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration= but sadly that was not going to be one of those games and I was on the back foot the entire game.

Good Luck on your climb seems like your doing pretty decent.

in a seperate thread on reddit/some other site:

"matchmaking is broken: how does a 46.99% smurf get into my game

link: http://dotabuff.com/matches/750069937"

link to thread

Ty havoc

I'm actually aiming to be on the US leaderboards (you need 5.4k to secure a spot safely), and they require 80 ranked MM games, which I'll play out slowly.

If I can accomplish that then I've pretty much "proven" I belong at 5k+.

If I cannot and drop to < 5000, then I will admit those players are better and improve myself starting at ~4700 (which is where my main is right now)

The "middle" option would be to hover between 5000-5300, in which case I'd still say I'm successful (though of course hitting 5400 would be the most auspicious outcome).

I do have to say the quality of this match is better than almost every game I've played for months, and I did feel outclassed at first, but slowly crawled back up and made myself (somewhat) useful.

I guess it depends on how well I can adapt and improve, I'm not used to having competent teammates so it was actually a bit shocking at first.

i bet the guy who posted before wave was making a hoax (amusing though)

what's actually broken about matchmaking is how even retards manage to hit 4500, cuz there's usually at least 1 in every game, lowering match quality simply by virtue of being present

Last comment http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9371251

Yea that's me.

Actually I take back what I said earlier - I have played in matches without (any other) 4k player on the team, and that was when I was playing with Beesa and his friends. It was intimidating cuz I knew I was the worst ._.

fuck man i am banned on playdota on like 20 accs rofl

i should make a new one

why do they ban ur accounts on playdota? LMAO

first time disruptive behaviour, every other time "ban evasion" even tho there is no rule that says making new accs is forbidden

dont argue with mods there srsly

i've also noticed something interesting, going back to what miseryy said when drawing a distinction between sustaining MMR and increasing MMR

basically to maintain MMR you have to...not be shit. literally, just don't be a thrower, don't be cancerous, don't feed, etc. the second game was pretty close until the other team started doing bad dives and getting killed around ~15 min in, and in the span of less than 3 minutes the game turned to our favor. so basically, i think a 4700-5000 player would have a good chance of winning that one.

however, to increase MMR, you literally have to rape just about everyone on the other team. In the case of 5500+ players, that means killing the retarded 4k players on the other team before their 5500+ player(s) kill your retarded 4k players. (Hence why a lot of them will just go mid with storm/ta, because they're reliable mid heroes who can farm and gank well)

So it's understandable why (I think) a very small % of players might be able to perform well enough at a higher MMR, but not advance toward that MMR in the first place. After all the MM system is constructed around the Dota game itself; it's not some vacuous force that operates independently. The one quality of the game - that the best player has more positive impact than the worst players' negative impact - could potentially misplace some dota players, especially ones whose mid mechanics are pretty lackluster and prefer instead to play something else, which leads to slower MMR progression and even stagnation at some points. If you are THAT much better than the people you're playing against, then this isn't a problem, but it could be when u reach something like -500 MMR from ur "actual" MMR. Of course we will never know anyone's "actual" MMR because there is no reliable way to determine it. The MM system is just an approximation of that value and encompasses a range of those.

tl;dr

@wave

i was kidding

When do you play to get no 4ks? Last two games I played had 4.5 and 4.2. I'm in the same boat as you, and tried to hit 5.4, but I lost like 8 games in a row, down to 5.0, and have since given up lol.
Best of luck to you!

no rules at all. op and i played one game together on page 2. next game he is page one, im on page 10.

Aha 46% and that high mmr. Accountbuyer telling everyone how the world works. Lets listen. So you got carried one game? You will be back at your 2k trashtier, where you actually belong.

it's his smurf, his "mains" are around 4.6.4.8k, he decided to finally tryhard on a smurf.

mmr has nothing to do with win rate, I know players with 70% win rate over 1k games and only 4k+ mmr, I also know players with nearly 6k mmr at 48-49% win rate.

Maybe find some context before you flame...

Aha. K. I hate smurfers. Just shit. Why not keep the mainaccount to try hard?

I've managed to reach 4900 solo just playing normally before falling back down on my other 2 accounts. Missed that last leap to 5000 I guess.

Anyways to answer your question, I usually find playing with inferior players pretty annoying. I was sitting at ~4400 MMR on one of my accounts less than a week ago (even though I'm definitely not a sub 4.5k player), and I decided to pick Riki. Other team counters by picking an aggro tri, so I'm like "fine, I'm ok with that since I'm used to having tough lanes."

Unfortunately my supports were complete TRASH. My Lich (who laned with me) decided to deny creeps WITHIN EXP RANGE OF OTHER 3 ENEMY HEROES. If he didn't do that, I would outlevel them, get level 6, and then try and roam to secure map control.

Then my Abaddon (who probably didn't want to support in the first place) went top to support a fucking BEASTMASTER, decided to buy a midas instead of useful items like force staff/mek/vlads/urn. Of course they push the tower down and then manage to get nothing done afterwards. They didn't rotate bot to gank the trilane (which would give me some space to farm at least a fucking treads/yasha), they just ran around and did NOTHING.

Around 10 minutes, I ended up just feeding myself over and over by suiciding into tower, cuz I stopped caring when I see garbage like that. I don't care about the trash solo rating on my (4340~) account, I managed to reach 5040~ party rating just by queuing with 1 friend of mine. No wisp/ursa, or any of that cheesy stuff. Just playing normally, without tilt = 5000 rating. (and when you think about it, queueing with 1 friend isn't much different from playing solo, unless you're using a specific strategy over and over, which I did not. the only difference was that the people i queued with were not retarded)

anyways i'm not going to touch the 4xxx solo rating accounts unless i need stress relief, eventually i will try and grind those accounts to 5xxx but more likely than not i'll end up throwing a bunch of games along the way, which will prolong the process. didn't mason throw from 6300 to 4700? and do u know why? because he got a bunch of trash in his games and usually stopped trying after that.

Trash 4000-4800 players are TRASH.

Good luck, hope to face you in solo queue!

LOL thx :)

well im 5.2 on my main but i still get 4.2ks on my team -_-

which server do u play on

4000-4500 are the worst, 4500-4800 are still usually annoying, 4800-5000 are pretty tolerable/sometimes good

USW/USE almost every game i play, im only 5k with a whole team of 4k.. ranging from 4.3-4.9 causing me to lose about 8 in a row so now i decided to make a smurf lol

US west has maybe 3 5k+ players queuing at any given time, and 15 4500-5000 at most. If I queue on off hours I get almost all sub 4500 players even if I'm playing on my 4700 account. Lots of US leaderboard players exploited this by queueing US West + cm/cd mode to play against 3500-4000 players, which is pretty much autowin for anyone who isn't autistic.

US east is a bit more tolerable (usually people around 4500).

Here's the way i see things: since the distribution of MMRs is obviously to be higher on EU West (there is a greater quantity of skilled players), it simply boils down to your playstyle.

Are you a play maker, capable of greatly exploiting enemies and winning by yourself? If so then US servers is better because there are going to be more retards on both teams. I've watched some of Arteezy's replays and literally, not only is he amazing at farming up a storm (it's like the guy he lanes against doesn't deny creeps at all, though I would also be outlaned badly so I won't judge), but he picks off the other team's retards well and efficiently. Not trying to downplay his skills (he's one of the best mid players in the world), but if he were to queue on EU West he would have a harder time raising his MMR simply because there aren't as many retards to get matched against. He would still be 6k+ but it's questionable if he would achieve 6800 as easily.

If you're not that kind of player (aka me) - I'm mostly a #1 player, I really enjoy playing heroes like PL, though picking PL in the 5k solo bracket is suicidal so I won't do that, and want people who are around ur skill level (so assuming u were 5.2k, you'd get mostly 4900-5500 players) then EU West is much better. Of course you have to factor in ping, though I usually get around 200 so it's not that bad.

There's one last psychological reason I'm going to queue on EU West - if I end up losing, I know the people I play with are actually decent, so I can take some responsibility. If I play on my 4300 trash solo account, and end up losing, I will almost always know it's because my trash players fed in all their lanes and I'm not playing some snowball hero so I can't salvage those nutcases. Hence I get pretty annoyed/upset and probably play worse in subsequent matches which makes it harder to climb back up to my actual rating.

Eeehh, I think Mason threw that much more because he used to be/probably still is one extreme manchild who throws hissy fits when things don't go his way at any point in the game or even at the slightest of mistakes. At least that's what he's famous for here in the DB, as far as I know.

I saw one of his twitter updates a month ago (cuz I was curious as to why he threw some of those games),

Mason Twitter (May 23):

"ROFL my safelane uses the courier to buy a full basi at 1:30. Great"

Honestly I'm a pretty shit mid player, but if I saw that happening I'd probably start throwing as well. Absolutely ridiculous how people don't understand the importance of winning or at least tying mid lane (DON'T STEAL THE FUCKING COURIER TILL UR MID GETS BOTTLE LOL).

How that can be alien to anyone is beyond me. Like I said, if matchmaking is broken, it's cuz even retards hit 4500 and there's usually at least 1 in almost every game.

Ok never mind, Valve's going to assign u to the division in which you played the most ranked solo games in.

So basically my options are: either play with the 4500 shitters on US East (and try to get 5400+ after playing 80 ranked games) or play on EU West and try to get 5800+, which isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon.

I'm looking at SEA leaderboards and it seems like u can get in with just 5350, so I'm literally 50 points away. My ping to SEA is actually about the same to EU West, with just 1 problem: I have a feeling SEA is probably just like US East though, I mean look at Zenoth's recent games. 5700 matched with 4600.

Excuse me while I get the mouthwash.

Here is what I don't get, most people who can't take 4k then go smurf and in turn pretend like they were never there. You were 4k once and part of that same class of player who you label garbage equally making you garbage. If making a smurf and getting 5K somehow earns you the ability to forget from whence you came and then act like you were always above everyone else then well.....I just don't know.

Yes, and everyone who is > 5k was 4k at some point.

What I'm doing is simply recreating the horrible experience in that bracket.

If I was a 3000 casual player (which I probably was about 3 years ago) I wouldn't give a fuck. I'd just pick heroes like Pudge and play "for fun." I might even just play unranked with friends, feed, and then just laugh it off, living in an ignorant yet blissful world.

Once you cross a threshold (I'd say 4000), then you feel dota is more of a competitive hobby to take seriously instead of simply a tool for enjoyment. And 4000 being the bottom of the barrel and 4500 not being much better makes this enterprise so much more demanding. I simply released all the pent-up anger accumulated in the past few months, and I think most people in my shoes would do the same. Look at all these threads about 4k players complaining about their own kind - how do we know which ones are the "trash?" And perhaps there are a small % who belong at 5000+? These are interesting questions that I have slowly shed some light on.

I am not saying I was "always above," I calibrated 3 accounts all between 4600-4750 in the first 3 months ranked came out, so I assume that was my "actual" MMR for a long time. I played up until 4900 and at some points tanked at least 1 account to 4300 simply after bad loss streaks -> getting angry -> losing more. I have no intention of playing at 4300 again until I master some mid heroes just to guarantee > 80% win rate.

Isn't playing on EU Servers hella laggy? Wouldn't it be about the same ping to play on SEA (and if so, why don't you do that?)

I get about 200 ping, so it's not that bad. I don't go mid anyways (if I do it's autoloss for my team) and last hitting against an offlaner is still pretty easy.

Looking at Zenoth's recent screenshots I'd say SEA is somewhere in between US East and EU West. Sometimes get matched with similarly rated, sometimes 4500-4900. Kind of risky.

I need to stop reading my own comments in threads like these cuz I get aneurysms when I do, just thinking about the awful games in the past few months is enough to raise my blood pressure. Countless games where I get camped mid by potm who shoots arrow every time it's off cd, then my safelane tri loses to a single offlaner (?????), and I end up with more farm than safelane carry somehow. Ofc when there's a potm on my team that shit never happens, he doesn't try to arrow the other team's mid even once. And simply asking for something like "plz ward my jungle entrance" is met by hostile responses even though buying wards is the bare minimum responsibility of supports.

It's infuriating how mongloids like those even use the Internet let alone play dota. If I could go back in time and knew where some of these people lived I'd go beat the shit out of them.

I need to meditate and keep calm, don't let the toxicity carry over to my 5k games, or it's deja vu all over again.

The "MMR has nothing to do with win rate" argument only applies pre-calibration. Once you begin playing ranked full time, win/lose generally translates to gain/loss in MMR. Instances where you lose games yet still gain MMR are a very rare occurrence.

Valve didnt want to make mmr public EXACTLY because of people like OP.

"Around 10 minutes, I ended up just feeding myself over and over by suiciding into tower, cuz I stopped caring when I see garbage like that."

I dont see any reason to justify that. By doing that you have shown unequivocally you are the garbage you revile in this entire thread. Also, it doesn't put you on the same level as mason when you do what he did i.e. intentionally lose mmr from 6300 - 4700

I never said I was on the same skill (or even close to being similar skill) as mason.

I simply stated that my reasons for throwing games are the exact same as his.

Also, when I start throwing, I acknowledge I will lose the game (maybe there was 1 time I started throwing but the other team was so awful my team still ended up winning), but all that throwing is accompanied by a sadistically good feeling.

why throw, so much effort. why not just afk o.o

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/pR4lZCM.jpg[/IMG]

shit's tiring at 4k, it's like monkeys let out of a mental institution

just gonna play at 5k so i can expect people with 3 digit IQ's and not worry about things as much

3K NOOB CASUALLY PASSING BY

higher mmr does not equate to better quality of games in fact it gets shitter and shitter as u go up.

Its just like when u got carried earlier in ur first post its ur job to carry those guys.

I'm pretty sure the tinker is an account buyer or a plant, I've never seen a tinker lose mid to zeus before, no matter how horrid the player may be.

^ ive never lost mid to tinker as a zeus before

Irrelevant but Tinker doesn't need to win against a Zeus to do well because he has access to Ancients and Jungle.

Like, you'd have to be stomped REALLY hard by the Zeus.

But yes, Zeus>Tinker in lane definitely.

"I've never seen a tinker lose mid to zeus before, no matter how horrid the player may be."
people do have bad days no matter how good they are. im sure everyone has lost a lane despite having a favourable matchup at least once before.

seems to me the thread is saying that when you're bottom 5k, matches are good because you get paired with upper 5ks who carry you. although i dont see how it's an impossibility to get matched up with 4ks if there aren't enough 5k players on at the same time.

i just did get matched with some 4k's, games didn't go well

i need to start picking carries in the first 10 seconds cuz i don't support

How come this EU 4k mmr sounds like 2-3k mmr in Ausland.

Hi cQ,

Thank you so much for taking so much time and effort to comment.
I like how you explain so much details on such a complicated game.
I feel that you are really experienced in this field.

Recently, i used my friend account which has around 230+ wins
http://dotabuff.com/players/103880744

He only played 2 ranked games before, so i played around 8 ranked games.
My main was orginally 3.4k, and i predict that his mmr would be around 2.7k -3k ( not calibrated at all before )
But when i play around 10 games in his account,
i feel that the games were easy.

I dont know why but the calibrated mmr is 3.2k
i felt terrible, as i thought that it would be around 3.7k - 4k
I hope you can review several games from the recent rank games and tell me how could i improve
i really try hard, and pick heroes i think would be suitable in the games.
But one thing is, i am not very familiar with these heroes that i have picked ( at least 10 games of each hero in my main )

I really look up to you, and i hope you could help me improve.

Ranked winrate - 33.33%

"Woohoo 5k mmr sure is ez"
*Drops back to 4k*

Well this is a common occurring issue in 4-5K brackets, people get frustrated with playing in 3-4K so make smurfs or buy accounts thus flooding the higher brackets with garbage and TBD accounts. Now while not everyone who smurfs and gets 5K isn't capable of playing well but sadly there the majority of the people aren't.

Trust me no one has sat for longer or been more frustrated with 4K as I have but I feel the climb out of the pit is what will make you a much better player in the end if you manage to make it. In defense of the OP I don't think he is getting out performed and will drop and I think he will keep his 5K and eventually settle and learn to adapt.

I disagree with the idea of hopping account to account but once you have played a large number of games and are finding it hard to improve smurfing is an option, I just prefer that people wouldn't use it as a weapon put down other users whos bracket they would still be in had they done no smurfing.

at this rate i'm going to be sub 5k soon lol

i won't be upset if that happens though

i did talk to zenoth and say i'll stop playing on this account if it drops to 5000~

here's the interesting part of the games i've played: even though i said i wouldn't get upset if i lose, i still mentally continued blaming teammates (even though they were 5000-5300)

w/e i need to stop doing that

@kevin
i assume you think getting lots of kills gets you high mmr. when the game takes into account stats, it's not just your kda ratio, its your gpm, xpm, your hero damage, tower damage, et cetera. probably stun time. all kills show is how many last hits you got on a dying enemy.

looking at a few games

http://dotabuff.com/matches/738391870
slark game
• 11-1-20, team has 51 kills. you joined 31 kills out of 51 but your xpm and gpm is crap, likely because you didn't farm well in the downtime and spent too long looking for kills. having 1 death to keep your kda is nice and all, but your performance relative to your teammates wasn't amazing, your teammates had similar kill participation to you, and you're third for XPM/GPM as well as hero damage
• not getting dark pact till level 10, most common skill build is 4-4-1-2 by 11, not 1-4-4-2. you get 1 in essence shift so that it effectively adds 19 damage to each attack (each attack reduces str by 1). more points into dark pact also lets you farm much faster as you have spammable aoe damage
• lacking early game items that couldve let you snowball harder and thus get a better score. movement speed items help slark roam much more effectively. at daytime you're easily spotted, so you need something to get in range of the enemy, be it blink dagger, shadow blade or just drum or SNY for movement speed.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/749617218
storm spirit
• highest kill participation by far
• low gpm though for someone balling out of control. xpm is comparable to weaver and he farmed all game, just goes to show how spending all your time looking for kills isnt the best thing you can do
• what do you need bkb for if you can just kill everyone in 3 seconds flat before they kill you, get bloodstone if you're snowballing hard.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/749476257
lion
• lowest hero damage, only being the afk farming terrorblade. you have an aghs and your ult is on a 20s cooldown. my guess is that you kept dying and couldn't complete the aghs untill the game was pretty much already over
• 2nd highest kill participation (22 k+a), but also most deaths, and your teammates who had less kill participation had more damage meaning they contributed more per kill
• only built big items, blink + aghs, rather than smaller items that give you incremental advantages if you're fighting often
• no tower damage. participated in kills, but didn't push with the team after a fight.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/751509019
phantom assassin
• dumb item choice, desolator does not stack with dominator, so it's only providing you with 60 damage for 4100 gold
sacred relic adds 60 damage for 3800 gold, and upgrades basher into abyssal blade, saving you an item slot and also giving you the overwhelm active
• 2nd lowest kill participation, highest xpm and gpm. too much creep farming not enough hero farming.
• 2nd lowest hero damage, only lower hero was treant, and that's because he's treant, he doesn't do damage, just heals stuff and roots people.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/751270349
mirana
• can't outlevel the morphling on your team when you have midas and he doesn't, barely outfarming him too.
• manta is a bad choice when you have nothing that affects your illusions, mjollnir would've been better as you can also static charge the morph or the pudge who are really tanky
• you have true strike but they don't have evasion. daedelus > mkb if no evasion, and also crits work on illusions, mini bash does not.
• not amazingly high kill participation relative to your team. it's the joint highest, but your teammates were close.

recent riki game was okay but i have no idea why you wouldnt go diffusal blade early. it's cheaper than sny, the slow is greater, you get more damage compared to SNY or basher, and compared to basher or sny, the slow is reliable. although you won, you might have shut down the am or tinker harder with an early diffusal. am also has linkens so you'd need 2 active items if you want to stun him with abyssal.

again, good kill score but relatively low gpm + xpm for someone who is doing that well. 200 last hits in 60 minutes is about 3 a minute which is terrible for a carry even if you are looking for kills. go do neutrals while you roam the map for example.

2 denies as a riki, lol. backstab works on allied denies now, no reason why you can't get lots of denies while laning. it's like trying to last hit vs a treant now.

hero damage was only comparable to the tinker on the enemy team, which is pretty good, but 1 good game out of 10 isn't enough to get you 4k mmr.