General DiscussionEHP Evasion

Nice vid, but i still low skill mmr

^I don't understand what you mean.

Thanks for share this video, so helpful

I just watched the video, which led me to the other video on evasion, but he gives no clear way to calculate EHP with armor. He had a EHP calculator, but the link is down

at the risk of sounding extremely stupid, at least this will fill a knowledge gap i have in math something that has puzzled me for some time

If you have 25% evasion, why is your EHP increased by 33%? I mean, aren't you 25% more durable in the sense that you'll evade 25% of the damage?
I imagine 4 ticks of 10 damage, which will end up being 30 damage because 1 will evade, 40*0.75=30 25% of 40 is 10, which 40-10 = 30, so why doesn't it make you 25% stronger?
I guess the same thing applies to spectre's dispersion, which she reflects 22% damage, yet she has 28% EHP more.

So, is it something like a point of view whereas 1.33x30 = 40, where you will be 33% stronger and the incoming attack 25% weaker?

I failed at math 095 my first time around because I slept in class. (I failed pre-Algebra in 8thgrade lol). Maybe someone else can give a link?

If you evade 25% of attacks...that means you effectively have 25% more health that you still have 25% evasion on...keep repeating that ;p

EHP from evasion: 1 / (1 - evasion)
Example: 25% evasions 1 / (1 - .25) = 1 / .75 = 1.33 = 33% more ehp

More complicated...
EHP = [HP * (armor * .06 + 1)] / (1 - evasion)

Taking 25% less damage is the same as being 33.3..% more resilient. If your HP is X then you will be able to take X / (1-0.25) = 1.33.. * X damage. Same with Dispersion, you take 22% less damage, X / (1-0.22) = ~1.28 * X. So your EHP increases by about 28% in that case.

EHP = HP / (1-Armor Reduction) / (1-Evasion %)

So if you have 1000hp, 50% DR from Armor, and 50% evasion, you have 4k effective hp.

Edit: And obviously this only applies to physical damage. Unless you're a purple time lord.

That's the problem i have with this equation. Evasion has nothing to do with armor, yet in that equation it will be increasing the value that goes along with armor. Why would evasion increase the hp of an armored target? like the EHP increase from 50% evasion should apply only to the HP, since it has nothing to do with armor. Unless i'm missing something.

Armor is part of EHP. If you have 1k hp but 50% damage reduction from armor, you *effectively* have 2k hp, because an attacker has to hit you for 2k damage to actually deal 1k damage.

Like, say you're playing Gyrocopter, and your attack damage value reads 200. You're attacking somebody with 1k hp.

If he has 0 armor, you need to attack him 5 times to kill him. If he has enough armor to provide 50% damage reduction, you need to attack him *10* times to kill him, which means that his armor has doubled his "effective" hp. And if your target has 50% evasion, you will miss half your attacks - so even though you only need to actually *hit* him 10 times, to get 10 hits you will (on average) have to attack 20 times. Because you have to attack 20 times for 200 damage per attack to kill your target, your target has 20x200=4,000 effective hit points.

Armour and Evasion are independent multipliers that act on the base hp.

For example 50% evasion makes you twice as hard to take down, so it gives a x2 bonus to EHP.

Around 40 armour gives a 70% reduction in damage, which x3.33 bonus to EHP.

Combined they give a x6.66 bonus to your EHP, so if you have 100 base hp you will take 666 damage to be killed.

^ oh hey didn't know you posted here

Any reduction will multiply your EHP by 1/(1-reduc). This goes for armor (your total armor, you wouldn't do it separately for different sources of armor), evasion, magic resistance, MoM/dispersion/backtrack/etc.

Note that this means when people say evasion or magic resistance have diminishing returns, this couldn't be further from the truth. If there were a 50% evasion item, and you had 1k HP/0 armor, the first one you bought would bring you from 1k EHP to 2k, the second one from 2k to 4k, third from 4k to 8k, etc. It's not diminishing, neither in a relative sense or absolute sense. It's exponential. The only way it's "diminishing" is the raw evasion/MR % which on its own is completely meaningless.

hello, who are you? xpforever from PD?

Microsoft is here guys, let's run before they find out the truth about our Windows!

I think i finally get it. Thanks

where is relentless

Edit: holy shit this was all wrong; back to C9 vs LGD and Germany vs Argentina.

^ you are wrong

if you buy a 50% evasion item in the first place, you take 2 times as many hits to kill, which makes your EHP 2000, not 1500.

if you have 75% evasion, your EHP becomes [1/(1-0.75)] * 1000 = 4000

i mean seriously, its quite simple, you need to hit 4 times more on average if you're missing 3/4 shots.

The second item gave you 2000 bonus EHP instead of 1000 - which is why evasion has exponential returns, although the evasion % itself is diminishing.

Imagine there is an item that gives 50% evasion, and you have 1000 hp and no armour

1 item - 50% evasion - 2000 EHP
2 items - 75% evasion - 4000 EHP
3 items - 87.5% evasion - 8000 EHP
4 items - 93.75% evasion - 16000 EHP
5 items - 96.875% evasion - 32000 EHP

"Chance to get hit = 1 (base) x 0.5 (first evasion item) x 0.5 (second evasion item) = 0.25. So the second 50% evasion item only gave you an additional 25% evasion instead of 50% like the first one.

So, if you had 1k EHP after armor, and bought a 50% evasion item, you would have 1.5k EHP. If you bought another 50% evasion item, you would have 1.75k EHP. The second item gave you 250 bonus EHP instead of 500 - which is why evasion has diminishing returns."

Lol, you really need to learn basics of mathematics and logical thinking.

You're right. My bad.

This is what I get for trying to do math while watching TI4 and World Cup D:

The funny thing is your first two posts were 100% right, shit happens :D Go enjoy the game rather then posting on the forum lol, world cup is only every 4 years :D

So, buying butterfly on PA actually decent idea? Would be a 17% increase in her evasion.
I think ppl often underestimate evasion, like with AM ppl often get heart instead of butterfly, even though am is already very tanky against magical damage, and butterfly is better against physical damage. Not to mention you should get BKB on AM anyway, so magic damage not a problem for AM.

The problem with stacking evasion is that even though the bonus gets exponentially better, it also makes MKB (an item people were going to build against PA anyway) exponentially better.

Edit: Obviously there are situations where it's fine to build a bfly on PA...but those are corner cases where the enemy is heavily dependent on physical damage and somehow still doesn't have a hero that is a good MKB carrier. Like if you're up against...a drow lineup, or something? Iunno.

It's a bad idea generally because PA's 50% evasion is already a huge reason to get MKB, getting a butterfly on top of that just gives them more reason to do it. However, something often overlooked is creep/roshan/ancients/tower damage gets almost completely negated, not to mention that not everyone is going to buy a MKB.

You don't really want evasion until you have at least 2k health(passives excluded). I wouldn't really build a butterfly on PA unless my team had a semi-carry that wasn't building evasion and instead just getting really tanky raw hp/armor wise.

As for creep/ancients/tower, a helm of iron will is typically enough to deal with the damage incoming. Upgrading to hotd once you have decent damage covers the rest as well(not to mention satanic being an amazing luxury for later too).

If you're steamrolling and already have your bkb + 1 other hp item, then sure rush out that butterfly and just abuse your advantage before the mkb comes online.