General DiscussionHand of midas question

glove of haste should be bought last

Let me do some quick math

midas is 2000 g. A creep gives ~50 g. So you need 40 creeps. If you go for a noobish 5cs/min that means 8 mins midas(ignoring the catapults). Hmm seems pretty ok. From what i know midas should be made in max 8 mins.

What about the heroes that it should be made on?

No need to be 8 mins mate, if the situation is right 12 mins is fine :/
For my personal opinion is a hero that depends on level, it's either hard carry/carry
I never liked the idea of support building midas.
From your most played hero, seems like WK is the most likely one that can build midas.

youre ignoring passive gold in that equation

1.67 gold/ s = 100 every minute so even with 5 cs itd be like 6:30 roughly

There's no timing for a midas once you understand how it works. Here's the deal:
When you buy a Hand of Midas you're investing 2k gold into an item with very little utility when it comes to fights. It's like you never farmed those 2k gold in the first place. In other words, you're making yourself weaker in the early game in order to have a gold advantage later.
Let's do some math:
Midas costs 2050 gold. It gives you 190 gold every time you use it, therefore it will pay itself at the eleventh use. With a 100 sec cooldown this means that Midas pays off 18 mins after you bought it, if you're actually able to use it when it goes off cooldown. This explains pretty much why is not ok for every hero to build it: There are heroes with HUGE early game presence which have much more impact in the game by getting a 2k gold item than getting a midas to "secure" lategame. In fact, some heroes are pretty much irrelevant lategame no matter their gold advantage.
An easy example would be batrider: What do you think will impact the most in a game? A 6 mins blink dagger or a 6 mins midas? Will bartider really take advantage of the gold lead lategame? I don't think so.

@Oleksandr
So you say that +30 attack speed is nothing in fight?

P.S. Batrider can be used as a carry. 10 stacks of sticky napalm give him +250 damage. It's almost like free rapier. Why not to buy some +attack damage items and enjoy sick DPS?

^
You're stucked with an item that costs 2050 gold and all it offers in fights is 30 AS. If you ask me, that's pretty useless in comparison to, let's say, a Yasha which gives you 16 AGI (aka 16 dmg, 16 as and 2 armor), 15 AS and 10% MS.

Yeah, because a competent team will totally let you stack 10 sticky napalm without doing anything rofl.

It is not Midas vs Yasha, but more like Midas vs Drums question. You stack with item that gives you 30 attack sped and extra xp/gold or you stack with item that gives you +9 to all stats and extra attack/move speed aura. And it is hard question imo.

It's not midas versus anything, there's a lot more to consider than raw benefits before getting a midas.

Sucky item i'd say...

Midas is pretty poor economics wise (unless for heroes that cann't farm / cann't farm fast) but is excellent if the games goes in a statu quo, thus no1 can make a flash farm, since every lane will be locked down.
-if you aren't too lazy, even dominator is actually better economic wise than midas, if you use a creep and make last hit with it, not even writing about stacking + last hitting with one-.

There's one point in midas that however is extremly nice, XP, thus in theory it should be very nice in offlaner.
But there again, the question is, where lines between being able to kill, not being able to kill, and getting kill are ?

midas will ofc push you on the right, if you stay in "being able to kill" than it's a good choice, if it push you in "not being able to kill" it's debatable, and if it push you in last one, or if you were already in 3rd category, do not make it ever.

Offlaner are even more important than middle in term of game pace, so you cann't really build midas on them, cause there's a very thin line between a useless offlaner and one that wreck a game.
One of the only exeption being furion, but it's cause no matter how bad in farm he is early, he always stay in category one, cause he is kind of "supporting" the team, and not making the move himself compare to a clockwerk.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/784525319 I think I shouldnt have went midas here because most of their team is early/mid game, thoughts? I think to make it work we shouldnt pick fights early - which they did anyway

Also, of course zeus got fed as fuck and just snowballed since then so me going midas actually handicapped us even more (+ morph went midas too so we both werent good to fight but that cunt actually said its my fault for the loss). There were few other factors that made it shittier for me but Im just wondering about the midas itself

If you face skywrath mage, and have any kind of blink, and enemy not having a good lockdown, you should NEVER get midas.

But getting bkb fast, I don't know how much sky ganged you, but if he does, you die. here in addition, if huskar come along a fissure of es, he cann't kill you, but zeus can finish the job. here not rushing tanking item (and bkb being the best here) is like pushing yourself from 1st category directly to 3rd one, which in carry is very dramatical, since it means you no longer can farm.

Yea I got the bkb when we actually got wrecked. Getting fast mom -> bkb would work way better I guess, especially versus a team magic oriented like them

My idea, but it can be completly wrong ... is that you build Midas on heroes that arent peaking in that 20 mins time while it pays for itself.
So if youre a carry, you build it around 5-15 mins, extra rarely later if they plan to farm the next 25 mins anyways, so the idea is, you should start being a beast around 30-35 mins, by that time, youre midas paid for itself, if you didnt feed while having it, it was worth it.
I hate the idea of support going for early midas. But supports building a midas around 20-25 mins in theory should work, if they know the game will go late. By 20 mins a CM is a pretty ranged creep, even without midas. Think about a turtling situation and a support who happened to get 1500 gold with a fortunate triple kill around 20 mins. You know you can turtle, but you will get 0 creeps in the next 30 mins couse the creeps getting to your base will be farmed by your carry. They wont hate you for midasing a creep every 100 seconds but youre not allowed to clear entire waves. And even if you clear them, youre squishy as fuck, so would die in the next fight anyways, losing that gold from the creeps. If im not mistaken, you wont lose Midas gold. So if it goes late, you can maybe get a Hex instead of your usual 2 bracers by the end of that game. This idea is goood. But when ppl realised support Midas is a thing, they started to jungle cm for 20 mins for a midas and being even more useless than a creep, so ppl hate on it. Yey.

So thats why imo you dont build it on offlaners and snowball mids, only on farming mids like sf and invoker, or on a ta or anything, IF you wanna farm them in that particular game, but usually its a bad idea on a snowball hero. You can get it on a warlock though, when youre allowed to farm aghs and refresher without buying anything else, it would take 20 mins anyways, you wont FINISH it later with midas than wihtout it, and youre usefulness will only peak after finishing both those items, so go for it if you can.

The point of midas on support is for extra xp, you will never get more stuff thx to midas as a support, since you already used 2k in a midas that need about 22 min to pay for itself on lane creep.

But for this you need to actually be able to delay the game long enough for enemy not to push you with mecka while you still don't have it.

For carry you get it right

^ Cant you get Midas on support after an item? I dont think mek is a support item anymore, teamfigths are starting earlier, so mid/offlaner has to build it to be effective, so as a support you can get something like an urn or fstaff. So if you happened to have gold and an item already, at 20-25 mins get a Midas, if you want the game to go extra late, and ... sell it? Only waste 1k gold then. So if youre plan is to build something big for the lategame push, either a hex or something else, you want to sit on gold anyways, why not sit on a midas?
I mean, I never built midas on support, just in theory and for those few games.

@1964
Void and Sniper have low hp and MoM makes them even more fragile. Ofc, a second after you turn on MoM you are going to die vs Zeus+Shaker+Sky lineup. Problem was not in Midas, but in MoM.

Unless you lost because of karma. Huskar asked you to wait and went AFK for 1 minute, but your team unpaused and got first blood on motionless Huskar. Stomping Zeus was a divine punishment for your dishonor. =)

@Vaeldiithia
I have same thoughts, but games end too fast. =(
http://dotabuff.com/matches/774221278

I actually paused it once when they asked for it, my team was just some angry kids

It was first midas game since a long time and I lost while Im winning most of my void games (getting mom all the time)

http://dotabuff.com/players/38659231/matches?date=&faction=&hero=faceless-void&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration= out of 15 games I lost 4

i think the point on midas is the xp advantage, not the gold, because you'll need more than 20 (28 if im not wrong) minutes of midas usage just to pay itself

Matrice apprend moi a jouer stp :o.

11 * 190 g = 2090 g

11 * 100 s = 1100 s = 18,3 min

So you have to use it 11 times and if you use it instantly it will take that long

^^^
Midas cost: 2k
Midas sold: 1k
= In the end, you've bought an item that steadily increases your Income of EXP and GOLD, and when you sell it you get 50% of the item.

~12 usages pays for the midas, if you've used it 12 times and sell it, you've suddenly earned another 1k for selling it.

if you use it only on lane creep it's roughly 22 min

Also keep in mind it's not all about the gold to pay for itself, you also get experience you know? And attack speed?

Attack speed = Clearing camps faster = Farms faster
Experience = Leveling faster
Midas = Not about when the item pay for itself by the income from the active
Lol = Yes

http://dotabuff.com/matches/783859004 went midas- ez game

^ thus all questions are answered.

midas is love midas is life

You forgot that since midas is so bad cost efficienty, you also lose a lot of farming power compare to regular stuff
Might even need to forfeit some lane creep, cause you just cann't 1v1 anyone due to it.

'Attack speed = Clearing camps faster = Farms faster'

Nope, you won't farm faster than you would if you didnt buy a Midas. For example, on Void: a Mask of Madness cost 1900 gold and brings much more to the table farming wise (not to mention fighting power) than a Midas would. If you compare to Maelstromm (2700 - 2050 = 650 gold difference) its even funnier, because Maelstromm allows you to farm much faster, to fight better.

Midas is good for XP, thats why you use it on big creeps before lv16. It's a good situational item BUT you have to consider you will have near to no contribuition to the team for the next 20 minutes or so. I don't like to pick Midas on heroes that need atleast 2 big items to be effective because it will delay even more my contribution, but its fine on heroes that can do well early on with a few items (like WK).

Keep it until lv 30 man. That unreliable gold
but somehow i hate it though, when i build midas on hero, i tend to build boots of travel so much faster than if I'm not building one