Playing something like a witch doctor mid is already playing him as core.
I get your idea, people play heroes to the mode they have always been accustomed to and assume that other players of this certain hero would also follow the general trend, but wtf I cant believe youre 5k or sumth. A venomancer mid doesnt transition into a support later on, he transitions into a utility core.
Thats some nice self-contradictory approach u got there xaxa
Dude its not like navi makes an ancient jungling alchemist doesnt mean its viable.
And if u want to make tons of space, why not a puck/magnus/bat? Farm isnt their first priority.
What?
I said veno/enchant mid was a similar concept, not that they were support mids. And I'm talking about breaking down the walls between #1-5 where everything is set in stone. Just because someone starts out the game farming, means they have to remain as a core the entire game. Picture this, a Wisp goes mid, farms his bottle/urn, gets level 6, then COMPLETELY stops farming and lets others farms the open lane and proceeds to go around ganking/warding/making space for the team. Do you still treat him as a core?
It isn't that hard of a concept tbh, many times we've seen support dooms/miranas/etc transition from a #4 into a core so why is the idea of a #2 going to a #4 so hard?
The idea of giving a support and levels is already being used in higher level games and etc, it's common to see a carry saying to the support, take lane and exp while I go jungle.
Or a support telling another support, hey you buy all first, I'll rush my blink/mek/whatever and then I buy stuff afterwards. This is exactly the things I'm talking about.
Certain heroes have extremely obscene peaks, a Puck rotating at 6 minutes is nothing compared to a Wisp relocating in with a 500 dmg nuke out of NOWHERE + another hero. A 10 min blink ES can be game winning whereas a 20 min blink es doesn't feel as impactful. This is about maximizing those peaks. A level 6 visage 5 minutes into the game can completely obliterate the enemy team whereas a level 6 visage at 10 minutes is completely meh, do you see where I'm going?
Conventional mid heroes do NOT have the high peak that many supports have, because supports are really strong at the earlier levels to compensate for later on.
and I like to believe I'm 5k not because I'm mechanically skilled (because i'm probably 4k mechanics) but because I understand the game more than others.
Whole concept is stupid...
When support transitions into core - it's GOOD.
When core transitions into support - it's BAD.
??
can you explain why it's bad?
or is your fucking 4k shithole low mmr brain too stupid to understand things that aren't spoonfed to you, i swear to god you're the exact type of imbecile in the past that would have called people stupid for suggesting slardar offlane or naga mid
triggered
Dude every hero is getting better with more money / lvl so why dont give all the Gold and Level to These heroes who get more stronger than others? I mean if u go wisp mid until hes lvl 6 theres another hero whos missing this ep. And I dont See how lvl 6 wisp can create any space while the usual mid hero is trying to catch up in Farm /ep
For this concept to work it requires not only a support hero with a significantly higher 10 min power level - but also a core hero that can quickly catch up on farm if they just have levels.
The reason core heroes have farm priority and supports do not right from the start is that support heros can function with almost no items. Core heroes require items or they are little better than creeps.
So if you pick a greedy line-up, the core hero you may be starving early better have a quick pathway back into relevance. The most obvious choice is a hero that can play like a support early, and transistion to core later. For instance gryocopter could roam and gank while stacking camps early only to take those stacks and catch up on farm mid-game. This would allow something like a skywrath mage mid who could dominate certain mid matchups easily and then become a powerful ganking hero with just level 7 and a blink.
oh ... so navi make alchemist junggling ? no wonder i play a match where stupid alchemist junggling n farm forever but keep dying n no item ....ppl really dumb that to copy pro scene play...
i do understand ur concept here dude... where long time ago i used to get skywrath solo mid get my lv6 early = op , killing all ard n i don even bother farm ... but bear in mind , u only can try such strat/strategic with friends .... get carry to utlize the space u created / end the game early... anywhere nowadays i play alone ... no strategic / communication at all ... sad
*i think skywrath solo mid still valid but hv to scale into late game , becoming weak while time pass and if ur carry n mates don utilize the space u created = gg
Vega vs mvp game 3 slader save lane went for staff dagger bkb for only getting the crushes
Do you want to show the?
It is a possible idea but not with wisp. It has to be that hero that needs that fast first item like blink dagger and then all his items are useless.
to be quite fair with you skywraith can still go crazy and nuke one guy to death once his bkb charge is used, I think this idea could only really work in pretty high brackets (5k+) were carries are much better at taking the farm available to them and so it would make sense to give more farm priority to them.
that won't work in a real competitive match, let alone pub match.
A mid lich can work. Deny XP and a early chain frost can create chaos early game.
Yup, early game.
But in mid game, if you're teammate fail to catch up XP/gold vs the enemy, you're in big trouble. Because they can't rely on their mid because he is a "support solo mid".
Its a interesting idea but the usual "1-2-3-4-5 position role" is much effective and easier to play.
The concept is understandable and is used by high mid laners like w33, he played a sky mid and used it to get quick nuke damage to force team fights that are easily won.
The problem is this situation.
Wisp goes mid to get the levels and a couple good items , and he's faced against (insert any late mid lane like OD or medusa(if your ballsy) ) . So lane goes alright neither kill each other. Well while wisp is currently in that position 2 getting farm , your late game position 2 is currently running position 4. So at around 15 mins OD has his blink/force/whatever the fuck he feels like building and maybe another decent item cause he got slot 2 farm. So at 15 mins your set with this, a wisp with XP and gold that will quickly drop off and become irrelevant , a OD with 2 items and on way to his 3rd, AND THEN the PROBLEM, your core that has been at the 4 slot for the past 15 mins has only his first item and maybe a piece of his second. SO, while your core is trying to catch up on farm (this taking the presumption that the core has the flash farm potential to catch up) , the enemy OD just got his fav item and is ready to team fight. All they have to do is force team fights that are 4v5, or they can pressure the jungle so that your core can't catch up and boom, ya lose.
All in all, while that support is getting slot 2 farm, the core in slot 4 is getting left in the dust by the enemy midlaner/core
The concept's been used by chinese in the early era of trilaning.
Putting a medusa offlane (sometime not even getting a single lvl by minutes 10)
while a lion on a tri safelane was farming a dagger + tread.
Then lion was rolling on everyone (helped a bit by the middle) while the medusa had 3 lane to recover from.
Anyway, the main problem for this, isn't to find heroes that place there, nor to find hero that will recover fast from a no farming (especially with the low amount of gold early game that creeps give) and that can zone a little early game.
The main problem is to find the player to do so, on a support level, it's kind of same, but will you ever find a core player that agree with such a strategy ? Personnaly, i already imagined this strat for dota2, not with a mid sup though, mid heroes tend to be overpowered, so it's kind of waste. But I reshaped this strat to replace the core of the trilane, which lately have almost full xp anyway, but more farm than the mid.
Even with that bias, NEVER will I accept to play it in mm, ONLY in team.
the 2nd problem of such a strat, is its actually more harmfull in terms of momentum to your own team than to opponent's so you have be able to play with different momentum, and often, it's the same players that create the move, and the other players of the team just rely on those 1-3 pillars, and follow. So if the player aren't flexible enough, it will fail by lack of momentum from your team.
the 3rd problem, you cann't always play this way, and it's very hard to keep pace of the game with very different stuff. It's really common that player with just 1 or 2 minutes late on their stuff, ends up totally useless (ofc some other play very well, even with less stuff than their usual timing) but that's a third point you have to wary about.
Main issue is pulling it off, you'd need an entire team practicing together to make it work.
If you run supports mid lane in pub dota they basically become cores like witch dr, apparition, shadow shaman.
Reasons why this is retarded
1. Supports can HARDLY stop enemy mid from free farming (except lich / maybe bane etc), so enemy mids will get free farm, heroes like invoker, morph, qop, TA, will farm in your face and therefor come online faster.
2. If you die in lane because you got ganked or enemy mid killed you, your "peak" is pushed back, and the entire purpose of you going mid is defeated as the enemy already has an advantage over you and you're pushed back and have terrible farming skills.
3. In solo que, people might not be on the same page as you. You reach your peak then no one does shit about it.
Plz stop ranting, go try mid IO vs 5k players see how it works out
I love to take NS mid for about 4 minutes, get level 4/5 by nightfall, immediately run around ganking. I'm low mmr but with a decent team this works v well. I've also run CM mid a few times, but only after shit drafts where I was the only real range option (it's ok, CM needs farm, but it's really much better to have her safe lane).
Enchant was great mid.....last patch, she's not in a good spot now.
Lich mid sounds good, but I would probably only do in a pinch.
@mid/carry
Your thoughts about me are terribly wrong. I'm very open-minded DOTA player. Look at my recent matches:
here I played as position #1 Axe and it worked
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2337234089
here I played as position #5 Silencer, but after I managed to secure farm for my carry I decided that I need Scythe of Wise ASAP, so I moved to jungle with Iron Talon and Midas
(BTW, we had Shadow Demon as solo offlaner, and nobody flamed him for his choice)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2336501351
here I play support CK
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2329286306
and here jungling Mirana
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2329218690
But your idea about transitioning core into support makes no sense. Sorry.
I remember support gyro ,stacking and farming the stacks later, with maybe a viper lane farming
This duo is a very lane dominant duo with good fighting potential with a fast mek on viper
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with another core in the jungle of course or multiple other heroes capable of transitioning, I don't know why this isn't done tbh, but its probably because 'everything' is set in stone and people will call you an idiot for trying something new
this wont work on all supports but stuff like wisp mid or skywrath mid, these heroes are beasts with early levels but fall off later, so people don't bother trying them at all but then why not transition into support??
in certain situations, I think this strat can be perfectly viable and sometimes even OP
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and we actually have seen this concept being applied but just not as drastically, take venomancer mid or enchant mid, where they get their early levels and starting items and just go around the entire map to make space, farm no longer being a main priority