im pretty sure that some local archon players have better item builds than w33, glad you asked!
I usually start with 2 gg branches, tangos, quelling and and lace.
Then, tranquils, HOTD, Atos in that order about 80% of the time. Ferrying clarities or using shrines to deal with mana issues. you're visage, so you dont need the extra armor early game that basi/aquila provides.
Medallion is decent situationally if there's a beefcake you need to burst down but ideally once you hit 6, you have a 1-3-1-1 build, kill the midlaner twice, finish your HOTD then start roaming, getting double kills and helping your team take objectives. It might be because I am noob but i find it really hard to just sit in lane with visage trying to CS with his crap animation. You're way more useful farming heroes to be honest.
Ags if I think the game has a potential to end early, then I'll go wtih the bird build of 40% XP, Bird speed and +bird. Otherwise, birds become food for their sniper or Luna and you're a flying creep.
Mid/Late game (Hopefull you've ended by now)
Hex is a good pickup. Solves your mana problems and gives you another chain disable.
My offlaner should be buying pipe. I'll consider it if we have, say a snowballing Timber or Bristle that's 14-1 so I'll take one for the team and get the offlane utility items that the team needs.
Shivas and Lotus too if you find you're being bursted. Force staff for the same reason. Your cloak usually keeps you alive for initially getting jumped, plus you can micro your bids back to chain sun, say a slardar or pudge who jumped you and is trying to eat you.
Basically, past 40 mins, I find it really hard to win with him unless it involves cheesy ratting with the birds or ferrying in a 6-slotted LS to take down the backdoor towers.
But yeah, around 100 games now, he's easily my best and favorite hero. Plus, people dont flame you for being a visage since they figure you know what you're doing. EG, you dont hear 'Typical visage player' like you hear with snipers, or SFs
There are so many supports that just get destroyed by Visage like Shaman and there's almost nothing they can do about it once your gargoyles reach them. Pipe is so extremely situational, like maybe get it 20-30% of the times on Visage, atos, solar crest, or even an aghs is way better.
The build is get phase first item starting with blades of attack gg branch tangos then get phase then medal then helm (sometimes I skip helm and go midas) you can buy casual hood just dont go a fucking pipe then aghs and solar crest then you can get what ever you want bkb bloodthorn hex linkens ac shivas are all good items on visage but your 6th item must be a nullifier.
one of the most broken strats you can try is picking visage underlord warlock ss lycan, underlord items must be crimson pipe greaves aghs. Also if the enemy team has crimson it will hard game for you.
since i seem to be the only actual good visage player in this thread so far here's the secret :
talisman faerie fire stick -> 2 faerie fires -> wand and bracer ->phase boots-> helm or drums -> atos/shivas/medallion
atos, shivas, and medallion tend to all be mutually exclusive because the game usually ends after you pickup any of these.
visage is pretty much item independent outside of your wand, bracer, talisman, and your helm or drums (your stat sticks and your big boy burst) so you have to tailor to your situation. atos tends to be better than orchid in pretty much every situation, since it disables pretty much all the big boy escapes (tusk's snowball, qop's and am's blink, weaver's speed burst, storm's ult, brood, void, clinkz, pa) and gives a nice stat stick. Shivas is more expensive than solar crest, yes - but Platemail is the same price as medallion for better armor. So if you're using medallion for armor just spec for shivas in the first place. The time you save farming with medallion is pretty trivial so you want to get medallion/solar crest as a desolator and not really as armor. You can say "yeah but rain you can do both!", yeah you can but you're doing that at the cost of stats (remember, wand+talisman+bracer+tp+boots means you have *ONE* item slot - adding more than one item that doesn't incorporate the bracer means it needs to have good stats because stats are what you need).
And dont limit yourself to 1 skill build sometimes you can max your 2nd spell sometime you need to max your 3rd. If you look at visage WR over all brackets it is atleast 57+
2 main reasons for this.
1-people dont know how to play against visage
2-he is so fucking tanky like really tanky.
^^ what do you do when some retard lastpicks timber mid against you
and what's the point of buying dominator before medallion
@369-T "your 6th item must be nullifier"
https://i.imgur.com/i7utpMX.jpg
if you're in nullifier range, when you're 6 slotted, the enemy is also 6 slotted in which case their capacity to burst you down far exceeds yours, AND they have BKB, which they'll use to burst you down before you can use nullifier - and this is before you realize that nullifier doesn't fucking do anything for you.
i literally can't think of nullifier being *the* item in anything else than a 1/200 or 1/500 games situation - which is to say, don't build it unless you can spot that exact 1/200 game, which is unlikely because i doubt even i could
@arin when someone picks timber mid you play the game as normal and kill the others. timber mid means they have 2 offlaners and no real mid which means they have probably no push potential and very little kill potential.
in teamfights you kill everyone else or you burst timber down anyways if he doesn't have 20 armor stacks
dominator is only good for a certain amount of the game which is why if you're getting drums you're usually better off skipping dominator because you already lost a few minutes of dominator "dominance time" unless you got a teamfight just after drums that gave you a few kills.
i never bought drums, i just get medallion and start killing ppl or catching up from garbage laning stage and then i try to get the 15-min wave catapult
will try, thanks
you should never have a garbage laning stage with visage mid against anything else than broodmother. just keep your supports out of lane to make sure you never lose exp, stay in lane until their mid tower is down, and then start going for kills while the enemy mid is trying to catch up
xp isnt a problem but cs are, when i play against sf/ta or some dumb melee hero
@^^ Well i never claimed to be a good visage anyways and you are clearly way better than me but why i said the item is a must because of the active when you have aghs and 25 they are slowed forvever and they cant use thier items like force staff,pike, ghost or bkb.
vs any mid you should always be focusing on denies and not CS. vs all the popular mids they become dangerous with a level advantage, not with a cs advantage. the CS is necessary for mids to be good in teamfights in the midgame, visage tries to be a threat before that.
if you have trouble vs TA the trick is simple - get denies during the time period she isn't instashotting creep waves (before level 5), after that just maintain creep control when she's instashotting them, because that means she's pushing (and since she can't safely push because going on your highground means she gets ganked, she leaves the lane, letting you get all the CS you want on whatever she didn't deny before going away). this also happens in about a third or more of my games vs SF (the ones where i don't dominate the lane, at least
^ it’s difficult for anyone to cs, might be an obvious one but use grave chill to help cs
@spec rain have u watched any of w33 games as visage
I don’t really get his build either tbh if u could explain why he goes helm before medallion?
He always pretty much goes same build
he probably toggles basi to make it harder for the enemy to lh and easier to deny, at least thats my guess
helm before medallion is probably better in higher mmr games where they coordinate a push
he probably goes for the mid t1 at 5 min catapult strat with rushed helm, but again not sure, havent seen the replays
pros item builds tend to be super specific and fine tuned, they wont necessarily translate well if u dont know exactly what and why theyre doing and why the items they get suit this style of play, to the dot
i havent watched w33's games but like i said about helm there's only a certain amount of time that it's good - once people have a certain amount of mobility, centaur stun is not relevant. once people have a certain amount of hp, satyr burst and hp regen and rockman stun stops being relevant. once bkb, stun and purge stop being relevant.
additionally, once people have enough damage and burst not only do your units stop being relevant but you start actively feeding cash money.
if a kill is usually 200-600 gold on a normal hero, killing visage is 400-800 gold. with helm, killing visage is now 525-925 gold. that's A LOT. you lose a dominant position FAST with gold losses like that.
additionally, the part that is very important on visage is that your birds also don't scale well at all with time, so planning your game around them is horrid.
as for why w33 goes for basi it's because he plays around a very early push strat in a vacuum. what i mean by this is that he picks visage for a specific reason in specific games with a specific goal. the early basi does not give him extra hp or mana cap (which talisman does), but it does give extra armor to his HotD creep, which he follows up by an early solar crest to further capitalize on his creeps and the associated burst.
he's basically going all-in on the early game, which makes sense.
the difference between me and him is that i play visage in every situation regardless of complicated situations. i'm not at the point where i can currently analyze if my build is better in *all* games including pushing, but because i don't pick him specifically to push as a way to punish the other team or to capitalize on my current team's picks, i play him by default in a more general way with a general opener.
"Why isn't he getting more play as a support given the current popularity of trilanes?"
because Visage is hot garbage as a support. He comes online too late, has no early camp or wave nuke, he is crap at harass, his move speed is slow, he's mana dependent and once you get your 6 and have kill potential, you need kills to snowball.
there's also the whole mana boots being terrible on him, further items being delayed by wards, smokes, dust purchases etc.
I think some in the pro scene play him as a 4 (Fly) but at least down in the dregs bracket that I play in, he's best as a core, IMO.
Just go with the flow~
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3814085791
Should max grave chill first if you decide to go helm.
4-1-4 is the optimal build this patch
^ im guessing he went with that build because of Pugna's ridiculous base move speed?
Grave chill gives your birds bonus MS/AS, that plus the aura buff from helm is insanely OP at level 6/7. It's good against every matchup. Also helps you with lh/deny post-6
Soul Assumption should only be considered to max first if you are going an aggressive duo/trilane. It's not that powerful anymore. Hence why most 5k+ visage spammers going 4-1-4 these days
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/visage/guides
All of you go and look at my recent games on visage. These are 100% the correct builds to go almost every game.
4-1-4 is not the correct build in any patch.
Maxing or semi-maxing Grave Chill first is only the right decision as safelane primarily and sometimes as offlane Visage, and not in every game, and almost never on mid Visage. IDK what it is with people looking at pro games on a hero they don't play and thinking that it's the right way to go. Pros are not picking Visage in the same contexts that you are picking Visage. They aren't playing in brackets where people freefarm and jungle for 20 minutes. Safelane Visage picks grave chill because people are going to dive your tower and you're probably going to be solo Safelane if you're playing him in that context.
I don't think anyone has sufficient data to say whether or not picking Visage in that situation is good or even close to optimal and short of asking the professionals doing this why exactly they did it I don't think you should be playing around their builds.
There is a theorycraft me and several other Visage players have been working on to go support visage and to go tranquil boots + soul ring with max soul assumption and max grave chill.
As for S.A not being good anymore you have absolutely no f***** basis for that. S.A did not get nerfed, it got buffed. The only difference is that now you don't get an immediate max charge from your first round of bird burst. You have a ~1 second delay before your first S.A can be cast assuming you are alone, which unless you are still in the mid phase, it is very, very unlikely you are alone.
Anyone playing Visage right now can see how insanely powerful the soul assumption talents are right now. They are so good that you almost never pick a ***40%**** increase in experience, which is massive on any hero, because an extra S.A per cast with insane range is even stronger than that.
all visage spammers are bad people, I already told it to 369-T so I am only targeting the rest of the visage spammers here
So how do you counter the bum rush of visage where they take all your towers and steam roll your mid?
^ If your mid is against a visage, rotate to help them.
Understand that visage has an absurd amount of kill potential at 6 so when he's 5, if you are a pos 4 or 5, get ready to TP in to help. If your mid is shoving their tower, tell them to be careful.
Playing both visage and brood, it cracks me up when the enemy invoker/sf/sniper just chain feeds and their team does nothing to rotate to help them. When we're beating on their rax at 15:00, and they are all chatting "GG, report mid" I always ask back why they didn't rotate to help.
There's some matchups which are royally bad and you're going to just have a terrible time if you dont move. In the pro scene, they realize this and rotate lanes for better matchups. Pub players largely sit still for 8 minutes and just get whatever they can out of the lane before giving up.
im pretty sure people go 4 1 4 because ur familiars get the buff
also playing against sf is FUCKGIN CANCEROUS
if i missed some from what i read,i'm sorry
but wat is the dominator game that you talkin about? do you still goes for bracer if you going helm?
Null into wand and basillius, blight stone then dominator, then boots and medallion is enough to siege high ground at 15 mins
I don't think it's possible to have a general purpose build for Visage. Your power spikes are mostly from levels, so skill build and item order are mostly dependent on lineups and how the match is going. He's a flexible hero and doing the same exact build every game is a waste.
You build the hero exactly how w33 does. Im a divine 5 with alot of meepo and visage spam over sevral accounts.
When i noticed w33 build i understood the power.
You ARE a tower as Visage, and enemies cannot walk into you.
Basi gives the dmg and push power, wand self explanatory. Helm for sustain + extra dmg and lockdown. Solar for burst, and pipe makes you extreamly hard to deal with around the 20 minute mark.
You max your q and e and max the nuke LAST.
You cs and deny by spamming q on enemy mid.
You run from tower to tower. Allways find a q target when taking towers, it makes you kill it alot faster.
The power of the build and hero is you are at peak when basi pipe helm solar is ready, you have hard push, hard sustain, hard lockdown, and a shit ton of burst.
You can power farm ancients and very few heros can stand against you once you have lvl 6.
Weakness of the hero is you are slow, and imobile, you cannot be all over the map. Helm and birds cannot tp. Other weakness is heavy depush lineups, tinker stalls the game just long enough for your deathpush to become ineffecrive. Practise on having the mindset that any hero inside the radius of your q and birds should be dead. Ignore 90 % of what u read above btw, holy shit w33 showed the way, just follow it
>You cs and deny by spamming q on enemy mid.
double that. Chill is great for kills when you have familiars. But it's actually one of the best spells in the game for the denying. When some of the creeps are low and enemy hero moves in for last hits - cast Q on him and deny/last hit. When they are level 1-3 the AS slow/gain is enough for you to land 2 hits on the creeps even before they finish the first one.
There seems to be a bristeback and sniper in every game I pick visage
Still winning but it’s pretty annoying having birds sometimes die 😕
Spamming visage as much as possible before the nerfhammer. Start basilus tango >blight stone>medallion>hotd>boots>solar crest>agh>bot>ac
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What is you item progression as midlander - I have been copying w33 who has been spamming Visage lately:
Ring of basilius
Two branches + tangoes
Helm of dominator
Medallion
Boots
Pipe
Aghs and then situational luxury items
Interested to know what other are building