General Discussion

General DiscussionOff-role heroes

Off-role heroes in General Discussion
ETdAWESOME

    Who’s less toxic, someone who (willingly) picks pos 4 Sniper, or someone who picks pos 1 Ogre Magi
    Basically, would you rather have a support playing a carry hero, or a core playing a support hero

    mic

      First of all: its not toxicity from their part if someone picks a hero in a position u dont like. Most of the time other ppl will be toxic towards him. Second of all, anything can work in dota, and for example ogre carry could very well work in some games and lineups, especially in lower lvls. There is very high ranked player who is famous for playing core heroes as pos4. U can find him here https://www.dotabuff.com/players/149704938. U dont have to stress about roles and certain heroes in pub games, especially in our lvl. Just go with it and try to win (and have fun while doing it) :)

      Este comentario fue editado
      varjager

        But there is no such thing as position 4 sniper, anyone who picks sniper as pos 4 will play him as a normal farming core. Supports cant play hard carry and hard carrys cant play support.

        mic

          @varjager I mean, it may not be the most effective thing but it could work... Just buy wards and try to gank ppl (ur first ability slows ppl so it would not even be the worst roamer i guess lol)

          mic

            and im not saying those things (sniper support or ogre carry) are good, but often u end up losing the game by flaming him for his pick than because of the actual pick. Its not ideal but thats what u have to work with:)

            One True Merchant

              If the team has no support, I'll take a support Sniper.

              ETdAWESOME

                Here’s a more outrageous example, I played a support AM
                https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3050699168

                top of the hold 'em totem

                  both get my mute + my report

                  Metsis

                    Ogre core isn't all that bad. That stun hurts hard and if he has some right click items, he sure has a good buff to top it off. It isn't ideal, but you never know... I was once in a game with a safelane of SS and WD... And they frikkin killed their lane and we stomped the game hard... Though this is not a very high skill match, but still, you never know.

                    It just might be crazy enough to work! It may fall flat on its face and you end up putting out a report or two... But it is not the end of the world... You never know before the game is played how it will go.

                    varjager

                      My question is why would anyone pick support sniper/am when there is heroes that does the same job 100% better. Sniper have a aoe slow, yeah so does dazzle and he heals and saves people. AM got mana burn so does lion and he stuns hex and nukes.

                      asdff

                        cuz it is fun, roaming axe, mid disruptor, core lion, pos 4 clock, core ww.... you will never understand someone's happiness axaxaxa

                        One True Merchant

                          Coz you have the chance to get many kills and become the carry even if the chance is low as fuck

                          miiigz

                            I would rather have a core playing as a support. It can scale better late-game.
                            PA once was a viable support (OoV + blight stone) untill dagger was nerfed.

                            If someone last picked Underlord mid in your game, what would you think? My thoughs were "gg we lost".
                            https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4548265619

                            ShiftingSkys

                              I don't have an issue with either. I think that players who try to force Decisions and picks based on their own experience is disgusting and they are the toxic players. In my Experience a lot of players have adapted and can do weird shit. I am like 6-1 with Offlane LS this patch. I get flamed every game but do decent and win. I play Mid Pheonix and get flamed. I am 4-1 with it. I play Support Sven and am like 6-3 with it. But I get flamed. I have done support sniper and it is pretty good. You Max Shrapnel, Combo it with a EZ to land stun and its almost a sure fire kill. it easily zones most offlaners. I Go Windlace, Blight Stone, Bracer, WraithBand, ForceStaff, Dragon Lance, Deso. It works very well as a 4 vs Moderate tanky Meeles or Low range supports. Id rather people be quiet and play their own game. I see players Pick Medusa into AM and Play like a Boss and win As Medusa. I See Axe's Pick into dazzles and wreck the dazzle. Player skill with a hero is far more important that the hero itself in some cases.

                              Kuwareta

                                i miss hanyolo build on sven, 1 boot 5 fury :) one shot every hero with hitting creeps

                                i like the comments, "im picking retarded heroes for position i play, but im decent player ,im a boss and manage to win"
                                so why u have 3k mmrs bois? where is the blue star lads?

                                when u are picking obviously retarded hero for some position and u win, its just meaning ur enemies as retard as u, nothing more :/

                                Kuwareta

                                  @shiftingskys
                                  ya u are decent player
                                  https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4551977044
                                  https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4548468026
                                  https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4544255606
                                  https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4508944903
                                  lifestealer offlane lane outcome:
                                  losing lane in 2 of them and drew in the other 2
                                  xaxxaxaax stop pretending sir, are u actual retarded? :/
                                  "i have 7k match , im picking ls offlane and im losing my lane half of the time, im """DECENT""" player, everybody sayin else is toxic shit" =))))

                                  +funny thing is ur team was good in all of them , they managed to win their lanes and carry ur ass

                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                  KitK8

                                    if you want to play support then why dont you just pick support heroes? theyre meant to be played as support, same thing with core heroes. stop trying to be special and risks the mmr of the other 4 players. just because miracle played roaming am doesnt mean you can and should follow it, he (and other top player) actually knows what theyre doing

                                    Cptn.Canuck

                                      but often u end up losing the game by flaming him for his pick than because of the actual pick.

                                      This is basically it. I've seen teams win with some of the dumbest lineups imaginable, but they make it work. Pubs are such uncoordinated shitshows that if you accept the weird pick and just roll with it and communicate, you already have a better chance than the other team of winning.

                                      What really matters is using that weird pick in the right way. If a person picks sniper, buys a courier, then just steals last hits in lane, they're not really playing a "support sniper" are they?
                                      But if they use their range to harass enemy cores from outside of aggro range, and gank mid constantly with shrapnel, they might be achieving more than you'd expect. They can get the CDR talent, shrapnel slow talent, and arcane boots and just litter every teamfight with AOE damage and slows, and give vision with your ult.

                                      Point is, you can make any hero work in any role as long as you know how to manage that heroes kit to fit the role. Will it be more effective than a proper "meta" carry? Maybe not. But that's how metas evolve. People try some dumb shit and some of it sticks. Just be a part of the process and empower your teammate to do the best they can with the pick they have. Once the pick is locked, you have two choices, be a grumpy loser and yell at them for not being "meta", or help them make their choice work and get your MMR.

                                      Казакстан блядь

                                        Friend of mine picked Ogre mid as a joke once and actually ended up carrying the game. And before you say anything no he isn't in my skill bracket he's higher than me lol.

                                        Ór Ymis Holdi

                                          if you pick sniper pos 4 you are griefing, give me a break with the fake forced PMA-attitude

                                          Tonitrus

                                            I play jungle enigma and np sometimes and still win. Its all about how you play the hero

                                            ETdAWESOME

                                              just because miracle played roaming am doesnt mean you can and should follow it, he (and other top player) actually knows what theyre doing

                                              But that’s the thing, isn’t it? In my MMR, people DON’T know what they’re doing. They don’t seek to properly punish stupid and weak enemy team compositions.Isn’t that why Spectre was a perennial pubstomper even at the highest levels of MMR play? The coordination was simply lacking to punish Spectre, then suddenly she comes online and it’s game over.
                                              “Anything can work.” -n0tail

                                              the better spidey

                                                There’s this reddit poster 2B I think that got to top ranks of immortal playing pos 4 using “core” heroes like AM, TB, PA.

                                                The meta right now allows you to do that as long as you know what you’re doing and know your support fundamentals (getting exp, harrassing, ganking, smoking, getting farm, pulling, stacking.)

                                                I’d rather have a 6k Spectre as my position 4 rather than a 3k Bounty Hunter. See where I’m getting at here?

                                                Ashes. John W33k. Lootbet.gg

                                                  Your question is too generic OP, it depends on the player playing a hero in that role, not just the hero in that role. Dota is a far far more complicated game than picking heroes to win, it's how you get advantage by the heroes you picked and your team's play style how they dominate the enemy over play style and pick advantages, positioning advantages that win the game.

                                                  But the answer to your question is both those picks suck at low MMR where noone knows how to play the game effectively.

                                                  varjager

                                                    In EU its usually tilted/toxic players that pick jungle or a 4th core hero.

                                                    Most of the users defending spectre and sniper support are from SEA.

                                                    Do you see a pattern? i do.

                                                    Peelioka

                                                      I think this thread has actually answered itself varjager. Its stupid picking offrole heroes if you don't know how to play them in that role but not toxic. however players that know the role well and are willing to play the hero in a different way to make it work with the role (see Cptn.Canuck's example) are not only good for the game by helping invent new ways to play they generally make games more fun for the players who themselves are not toxic. If you want an example go on Admiral Bulldog's YouTube channel and watch his most recent videos playing with OD, Slacks, Godz and Sheever. They pick a lot of stupid offrole heroes but because they all run with it they all have a lot of fun.

                                                      The things that are toxic are those players who pick Off-role heroes like support sniper etc and proceed to steal farm, buy no wards all game and build as a 4th core; people who pick junglers to spite the team - I've had that recently where a played jungle invoker after losing a roll for mid.
                                                      The players who flame people for off-role picks are equally toxic though. That is usually the difference between having a 50-50 game and losing outright. Nobody plays better when they're being flamed. There are plenty of example in this thread already of those players. Anyone who says they'll report the player instantly for example. I've experienced it before playing mid or offlane LC, position 4 SB for example. Just because something isn't accepted as 'meta' right now doesn't mean it won't be soon and it doesn't mean it isn't good. Think of the new atos, greaves viper build. If you'd tried that in pubs 4 weeks ago you'd be flamed for building stupid items for the hero, now its the only build being played.

                                                      In conclusion, don't judge before the game is over; someone playing off-role may surprise you. Assuming they're toxic from the off is what makes them toxic.

                                                      varjager

                                                        When i played dota allstars heroes like Lich and Lion were common mid because of their huge power spike at level 6. When i started to play dota 2 mekanism build was common on viper. None of that is that weird but in this thread people make it look like support spectre is something you can run every game and its as good as any other support, which is not true.

                                                        Playing position 4 Sven, Slardar, Tide, Kunkka etc makes sense. They got a skillset that can be used in different ways and is enhanced with blink dagger.

                                                        I take a support slardar with blink over a support sniper with atos.

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                                                        Eddie

                                                          Pick Invoker offlane, mind fuck your team and win so they keep quiet

                                                          CAESAR KING OF APES

                                                            The higher your mmr goes the least you will actually be flamed for you "strange" picks. Only low skilled players blame picks. Everything can work. Recently there was 6.5k guy on reddit that played pos. 4 Ember & Troll. He got such high mmr by playing it. Or Matrice was like 6k+ & played jungle TB. It's not about picks, but play.

                                                            https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4551827597

                                                            Here ez win for me as Ember pos 5. Stop blaming teammates, and get good.

                                                            Este comentario fue editado
                                                            varjager

                                                              My point is that i have played many games i could played any hero and yet win the game. Since i play serious in ranked and fool around more in unranked most of those games are unranked.

                                                              Este comentario fue editado
                                                              Peelioka

                                                                Yeah, personally I'll only ever try those sorts of builds in unranked. Usually something like Single Draft or All Random where you're shoehorned into it anyway. It would be nice if the whole community only played those kinds of experimental games in unranked and played seriously in ranked

                                                                CAESAR KING OF APES

                                                                  ^ Why do you assume that someone with unconventional pick doesn't play seriously? There are many high mmr players that play unconventional heroes like CM, IO, Dazzle mid, roaming Ember etc. They don't troll, but are not closed minded as most of the community. You can play nearly any hero on nearly any role. It's about how you play it, and when you pick it.

                                                                  Btw. I had many games where I wanted to flame a pick, but it turned the guy who got it carried the game. It's better to shut up, and not lower the morale.

                                                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                                                  Peelioka

                                                                    Mate, read the whole thread.

                                                                    Kuwareta

                                                                      @ape
                                                                      If bulldog playing cm mid or buying 3 rapier on mars when he playing with his friends for fun it doesnt mean u can do the same in ur bracket
                                                                      Reasons:
                                                                      U are not in the same lvl as he is
                                                                      U are not playing with ur friends for fun

                                                                      Bulldog when playing solo ranked he just picking fucking his best two heroes

                                                                      Ppl flame in lower brackets cause it makes sense , if u can do sniper pos 4 why u are a fucking 2k then?

                                                                      Talker

                                                                        It depends on hero. Like seriously - it is not that long ago when there was played Weaver, Axe & sven as position 4, Dazzle position 2 in pro games... Rubick used to be support, than mid, than support.

                                                                        Playing sniper/medusa/AM as a roamers is quite ineffective - these heroes needs levels/farm to be useful. So you have to leach a lot of XP from the lane to do something. They just cant really roam - shrapnel is decent ability, but provides very little as a roamer. Medusa has teamfight ultimate, but that is all. AM can exchange hits, but needs xp to be useful.

                                                                        On the other hand, there are carries who can be effective as roamers. For example Gyro, who has stun, powerful nuke, teamfight spell and decent movement speed. CK has stun/nuke, relocation spell and with farm scales with Aghs for example. Alch has powerful stun/nuke and can either move to core role or can give aghs to his team or build auras. Sven has stun and buff for his team.

                                                                        The same goes for some support heroes switching to cores - more than carry to the mid. Heroes like WD, Sky, Rubick, Willow dazzle can completely destroy the game if they manage to win the lane. But there is a need for hard carry who can use the powerspike of this mid to build up like crazy. Before the last big changes of abilities it would be ok to counter Viper, Huskar mid as SD, as you just trash them with Q&W.

                                                                        So in the end if the player can manage the role well on not standart hero, I will be happy. I played with roaming gyro who was involved in 10 kills in first 5 minutes and won the game for us (went for manaboots, drums, urn, rod of atos). I played against support tide who just fucked us completely in lane and we couldnt do anything with that. I played WD mid and completely trashed enemy SF and than the rest of the game with PT and shadow blade.

                                                                        Mightypeon

                                                                          There is a surprising amount of totally insane things that can actually work.

                                                                          The dumbest thing I ever did that worked was position 5 Bristleback against an aggressive trilane (Bristle basically acted as a fire and forget missle to be lobbed at the enemies trilane, he is also reasonably useful in stacking the jungle. They also counterpicked bristle heavily which was totally useless).

                                                                          P9^

                                                                            That 6k player who play am and stuff on support is amazing, my hero, he inspired me with pa support, and i won! I think pa is a such a dogshit hero anyway to carry you.

                                                                            ETdAWESOME

                                                                              I’ll just say that I don’t go into ranked games with playing supports with carry heroes in mind. I’m merely the one willing to adjust playstyle and position should we end up with core-heavy lineups.
                                                                              The only time I’ve done Sniper support wherein I already had the intent to do so beforehand was in an unranked match.
                                                                              Also, since I’ve stirred up a decent amount of attention to this topic of off-role heroes, mind if I ask what your opinions are on the following?
                                                                              Support CK, Support PA, Core Lion(not just mid, maybe even pos1,top priority farmer), Mid Furion, pos1 WR, and Support Razor

                                                                              varjager

                                                                                I looked up that immortal guy that play carrys as pos 4 and i wasnt amazed, what i saw itemwise he builds traditional early mid game items for the specific hero like phase boots echo sabre on mk but adds a urn for the illusion that he is playing "support". He usually never buy wards, he dies alot and he lose alot of games.

                                                                                Im not gonna download replays to actually analyse and see why he lost or won games.

                                                                                I mean after everyones ass licking i was expecting high winrate and only spamming hard carry support. I was dissappointed.

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                                                                                Road to reformation

                                                                                  I played 4 am, qop and still won

                                                                                  YourLastHope

                                                                                    It depends on the enemy lineup and your own team's lineup. If I had a hard carry mid like a TB, I wouldn't mind so much a pos 1 ogre. On the other hand, if my team already has three farm dependent cores and the pos 4 picks another late game carry then thats pretty toxic. Reasons being: Your early game is severely gimped and you will most likely lose from the enemy snowballing.

                                                                                    With that being said, no one plays perfect dota and the lower skill the game is, the higher the chances of your picks going unpunished.

                                                                                    You see examples of players in higher skill brackets with success on greedy cores as pos 4 because the amount of game knowledge is higher in those brackets. Players know the matchups and roles better for their heroes and they understand when things are in or out of their favor.

                                                                                    In my 3k-4k games a greedy pos 4 pick most certainly means a hero that does very little in the early game and spends the majority of the mid game taking safe farm. This only works when the enemy has no clue how to close out a game and push objectives.

                                                                                    John

                                                                                      It’s actually a 3 fury build. I miss it a lot and have found much difficulty with it recently.

                                                                                      John

                                                                                        Funny how all my recent losses with sven were me trying to go “normal” build and not staying true to myself.

                                                                                        I thank you kind gentleman for reminding me of what is truly important in this life. Time to bring it back.

                                                                                        ETdAWESOME

                                                                                          Shaddap Jacked