General Discussion

General DiscussionNeed draft insight

Need draft insight in General Discussion
S!silàh

    What carry can pair well on a lane with aggressive sustaining supports like Undying, Dazzle and Witch doctor?

    And in what draft would you pick skywrath mage support?

    bojlwe6ctbo

      Morph/heroes with stuns(tiny maybe)/any easy to kill hero with high dmg.
      Not playing skymage so can't tell there

      Glimmer of Dawn

        These are all kinda wildly different heroes but I’ll try to keep it short.

        Undying is typically run as a safelane supp to deal with strength offlaners like Centaur or Mars. Decay absolutely shits on them.

        Undying gets better the more enemy melee there is because tombstone is hard for melee to deal with. Is really good against trilanes because of decay.

        The carry partner is unimportant but undying is quite early game focussed so ultra lategame like morph spec or a push end early like jugg are the plans that make sense.

        Este comentario fue editado
        Glimmer of Dawn

          Dazzle- generally a strong babysit 5 but lacks a hard stun. Poison touch is a great zoning tool which is amazing against solo offlane but less good in 2v2.

          Often partnered with ultra late game heroes, or heroes that do well with saves, eg morph ember huskar slark

          Need stuns from other heroes

          Glimmer of Dawn

            Witch doctor is well balanced for a support and has many different early game skill builds. All of his skills can be levelled up and they all make sense in different situations.

            Maledict needs to be levelled up to bully out weak offlanes that you can team up with your carry, if your lane is stronger.

            Voodoo restoration is really good for hard safelanes that you need to sustain your carry. Buy more clarities for this build.

            Cask is the middle ground- always good to spend points in but not useful by itself. It’s not the best stun and needs other targets, which is a big downside for the hero.

            This makes witch doctor a very flexible pick (he can build multiple ways), so the carry pick is not that important. The important thing is that cask is a good spell, eg against enemy io.

            Glimmer of Dawn

              Skywrath mage can be run in both sidelanes but serve different purposes. He is a lane winner as long as you have mana so buy lots of int and clarities.

              Because he is so strong at winning lanes you can put him safelane to protect a greedy carry like morph or spec, or you can plan to shut down the enemy offlane and pick a tempo carry like jugg.

              More often you will see him offlane to try to win offlane really hard.

              The weakness of skywrath is that he is all magic damage so he is bad in the midgame against bkb and manta. Also he has low armor and no defence so heroes he is good against early like PA and storm will rekt him later.

              It is important to have heroes in the midgame who can disable for the skywrath for his ult and stun through bkb, or you try to end early with a push strat.

              Sky can transition into late with hex and aghs but it is more common to be stuck on atos and ghost scepter. He needs a lot of gold to transition into late properly.

              Kowareta

                holy fuck such a waste of words glimmer.
                can u help me in my holy book for parma-chan religion? im publishing it soon

                S!silàh

                  Thanks a lot !
                  Can we agree by saying that thoses 3 supps are aggressive sustain laners? And that they either win by early push or with late game draft then?

                  Can anyone give exemple of good carry for both thoses situations please? (Morph and Spectre aside).

                  Glimmer, like always <3

                  flourishing new leaf

                    Naga is a sure win with those heroes

                    MuLLiPullervO

                      Sky wrath could also skip Clarities and just deny him self to tier 2 tower! Just keep one mango rdy to be useful if needed.

                      @Glimmering Sea

                      U are like pearls to pigs! Too good for this forum really!

                      P.s TY u are the best I might want to add u

                      37 MVP and Counting

                        Undying, Dazzle and Witch doctor is trash against core heroes like,

                        CK,
                        Bloodseeker,
                        Void,
                        Juggernaut,
                        Medusa,
                        Alchemist,
                        Ursa,
                        Lycan,
                        Weaver, and
                        Monkey King

                        pair them a tanky support or heavy right clicker/nuker support like Ogre, Shaman, Oracle, Rubick, or Lion.

                        Asylum

                          ^ pure intellectual advice from guardian

                          Glimmer of Dawn

                            You’re welcome, always happy to help.

                            Hmm you could say they are all sustain heroes but they are also different.

                            Carry analysis:

                            Greedy weak laners that can get big:
                            Drow, Medusa, Slark, Arc Warden, Terror, naga, ember, morph, alch

                            Tempo carry:
                            Gyro, sven, huskar, centaur, windrunner, lycan, jugger, necro, pugna, bounty hunter, slark

                            These are rough groupings but should help you think about drafting :)

                            Inmate #322

                              Witch Doctor + Techies wins every lane

                              VISHNU

                                Why do you think Ember, Slark & Naga are weak laners? Naga has tons of armor, and great base hp regen. You can't kill heroes well in lane with naga, but it's not that easy to get her out of lane. Slark depends on matchups, and can be v. strong in lane. Ember is kinda bad first 3 lvls, but when he gets lvl 3-4, he is not weak anymore. Why do you say Ember is greedy? He can do a lot with little farm on the map.

                                Glimmer of Dawn

                                  These are heroes that are vulnerable to pressure from strong laners and will have much better games if you pick strong defensive supports for their lanes rather than greedier supports.

                                  What you are saying is true, but these are rough groupings to help our lower skilled friend here.

                                  Molokheya

                                    Juggerdog, Ursa and WK are the first ones that come to my mind. One is annoying af and has magical immunity, one is fast and dominates lane and the last one has stun that would compensate for Undying's lack of lockdown, being complementary to his damage. Plus he takes towers and not just kills.

                                    I would pick Sky support when carry is weak early game and/or countered by the offlaner, especially because usually carries that are weak early are strong in the late game and you know the game has no chance to end in 25 min, which grants you to hit both Sky's power spikes in lane and later in the game without your team suffering heavily in mid game fights due to enemy cores going for BKB.

                                    Glimmer of Dawn

                                      Oh yeah forgot about ursa. I intentionally skipped WK cuz i haven’t played him since nerf, probably still valid though :)

                                      Adepta Sororitas

                                        I think in the end we can agree the draft is just about the most important thing in dota 2. Next would be skill and normal human function.

                                        Wisdom from trash crusader.

                                        Este comentario fue editado
                                        S!silàh

                                          What about CK?

                                          61 years old

                                            old nickname; deadinside
                                            new nickname: draftinsight

                                            ETdAWESOME

                                              @S!silàh
                                              CK is support kappa

                                              Glimmer of Dawn

                                                CK is last pick material and imo not a very strong carry pick. He doesn’t farm fast, and he’s an illusion based hero that can’t really use his illusions to farm or use radiance properly, nor diffu blade for fighting

                                                Metsis

                                                  On Witch Doc, you should practically never level up the heal in the early game... Maledict and Cask... That gets you kills. You can basically kill anything with those two spells and a few right clicks and once you hit lvl 6, you can kill anything with those two combined with your ult. The heal is really slow and mana expensive and basically if you do that heavy heals, your harrasment is limited to right clicking. The spells cost a lot of money. If your carry is taking heavy damage, get salve's and extra tangoes to heal him... But if you do your job right on WD, you are killing the enemy offlaner and he ain't even getting close to your carry. Needless to say on the safelane, the main thing is the ability to stop the diving Axe or BB or other type of run-at-you-hero that most of the top offlaners are. Most of the late game carry heroes don't have a stun and most of them don't even have a slow. So basically the support is usually in charge of stopping the enemy team from diving...

                                                  I haven't seen Undying slot 5 basically at all, I guess it can work, if your carry has the skills to play against an aggressive lane. But undying is basically useless after 15 minutes into the game if he has no items... He dies off really fast unless you can find more sustain for the hero from items. GG boots, blade mail, vanguard, pipe etc. are all good items to have on Undy. And if you are buying most of the wards, you will have little impact in the mid game.

                                                  I have had my share of games on Huskar and I can say that Huskar + WD is a deadly lane. With the burning spears and maledict ticking away, death is inevitable... That is one strong lane.

                                                  Dazzle Poison Touch is really good and the attack animation is one of the best in the game. He is a strong lane partner for any carry and has a large impact on the game even with next to no items... He basically needs just GG boots and he can heal the team to victory. But Dazzle cannot stun the enemies... Thus he isn't best with like a low lvl spectre unless he can harrass the enemies away. I'd say good against a solo lane, not so much against a dual lane with the low cc skills. CK and PL should work well with Dazzle on the lane, with the ability to swarm opposing heroes and nuke with the heal on top of it. Or Sven or WK etc.

                                                  S!silàh

                                                    What about Lina pos 4/5? Does her style ressemble skywrath one or she does totally different things?

                                                    Glimmer of Dawn

                                                      I think you should start looking at heroes and what their skillset is and reason about it.

                                                      I’m not gonna be here forever you know, I won’t be able to explain a hundred heroes to you.

                                                      Look at the explanations I did before and try to analyse what Lina support can do. Write them here and I can give you feedback.

                                                      This is part of the learning process ;)

                                                      Este comentario fue editado
                                                      Desephviasco

                                                        On Witch Doc, you should practically never level up the heal in the early game... Maledict and Cask... That gets you kills.

                                                        Yeah thats why you crusader.

                                                        I'll not giving u a proper answer like glimmer does but i'll just told u that i win some lanes by just get heal at lv 1. Go think for yourself the reason why

                                                        S!silàh

                                                          Lina is real good a killing a single target and can scale into a core like Sky so she is better pos 4 IMO and I am not sure about her ability about winning the lane where sky is made for, I don't think she can really pos 5 successfuly.
                                                          But at least she offer a stun so can be good in setup draft.

                                                          Sooooo.. she is not like sky early but have the same purpose later on and is «greedier»?

                                                          Glimmer of Dawn

                                                            Explain every skill to me. Q, W, E, R and what order of points you are likely to skill in early game.

                                                            Look at their numbers. How efficient are the points?

                                                            How well does she use farm? How strong is she without farm?

                                                            Eg. Windrunner support

                                                            Shackle is a stun that does no damage,
                                                            Powershot is an AOE nuke.
                                                            Windrun is an escape evasion that can be used for trading,
                                                            Focus Fire is lots of damage for chasing.

                                                            Powershot will be first to be maxed in most games at level 7 because it is a nuke and scales well.

                                                            Windrun scales well because cd and duration improves per level.

                                                            Shackle cd and duration improves per level but mana cost increase.

                                                            First point as supp is generally E but sometimes Q or even W.

                                                            She is very good with farm because of ult but doesn’t need farm because her abilities QWE are so strong, etc.

                                                            Now you try.

                                                            S!silàh

                                                              Lina use farm very efficiently because of attack speed bonus from E, and farm really well because of that, and creep wave because of Q&W.

                                                              She can still be strong without farm because of W and R, but only offer a disable, a nuke and some push? (Attack on tower and q&w for lane push)

                                                              Q is an aoe nuke that is not that strong early but scale well. Should be maxed first after 2 points on the W?

                                                              W deals decent damage as a stun but does not scale good in damage, only in stun duration but because it's aoe stun it's important second.
                                                              And can help your core survive in the lane

                                                              E is good with farm, without farm you are too squishy and deals not that much damage to use it efficiently

                                                              R is good to take down support or finish core.

                                                              So I guess she is not that good at harassing because her spells cost a lot of mana, but she has a really long attack range and a stun that can make up for it?
                                                              So yeah she is not like Sky who harass like crazy

                                                              Kowareta

                                                                u think about the game more than it needs ladz.
                                                                just play it lol

                                                                AnŦaiN

                                                                  ^keep this attitude going and u wont reach even 5k .

                                                                  Este comentario fue editado
                                                                  AnŦaiN

                                                                    U gotta give some time to post screen of a match and think what should have been done to improve ur gameplay quality atleast !

                                                                    Kowareta

                                                                      can we bet on my mmr? AnTain?

                                                                      Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                        @ S!silàh

                                                                        That's a pretty good analysis. Good job :)

                                                                        Things I would add or change:

                                                                        Lina has strong nukes which are good for trading, but is very mana intensive. Q and W start with similar damage, levelling Q gives better damage but W gives better stun duration.

                                                                        Q has the downside that it usually pushes wave when using it in sidelane, which is generally bad for safelane supp but generally okay for offlane supp.

                                                                        W has the downside that it is a skillshot and you have to land it. Or you need setup.

                                                                        E is always "value" but is best with farm, so you're right there.

                                                                        She needs mana sustain and mana pool. Probably mana boots and Eul's most games. That means she has a baseline farm requirement.

                                                                        R is mana intensive but low cooldown. This is really a plus point for supp Lina. Because of its high damage, you should use it early on a core if you think that it will help your core kill them. Don't use it to secure kills if possible, let your core take the kill.

                                                                        So yeah, not like Skywrath who can harass like crazy.

                                                                        So a few follow up questions:

                                                                        1. Is she better as 4 or 5?
                                                                        2. Do you think it's better safelane or offlane support?
                                                                        3. What kind of cores do you think she is best laned with?

                                                                        S!silàh

                                                                          I think I need to know the right questions to ask myself about heroes to help me understand them to draft them and lane against them, you making me analyse this helped me, any other questions I should ask to have a better understanding?

                                                                          So yeah of course lina is pos 4, I think she can lane in both lane decently with an advantage offlane, or in trilane safelane with another hero helping her set up w.

                                                                          And I can't see with whom she could be paired with unfortunately, I guess tanky ones?

                                                                          Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                            That analysis is spot on. Really nice. Definitely 4 more than 5 but she can do both. Offlane better.

                                                                            Don’t forget she can stack and farm jungle with Q and W which is great for 4 position especially.

                                                                            Look back at my previous posts and look at what aspects i analysed ;) you can do it.

                                                                            Well for example she’s good with sand king offlane, wraith king safelane. Can you think of others? Tanky is one aspect for sure :)

                                                                            S!silàh

                                                                              Yeah, some heroes with stun to help set up her W, and core that can be independent for her to rotate

                                                                              Glimmer of Dawn

                                                                                Ok nice. She’s quite squishy so a big tanky core she can sit behind is useful.